UFCS is such an underrated language feature. When you have UFCS you can toss out 90% of the uses of methods in favor of just plain ole functions. Add generic functions and concepts and you rarely end up needing OO support.
pjmlp · 5h ago
OO support is more than just record.method(), which is something you don't even have in OOP systems based in multi-dispatch.
sirwhinesalot · 5h ago
I always find it funny how people focus on the .method() syntax. You have the "pipe" operator in some functional languages that achieves the same thing, pass the result of an expression as the first argument of the chained call on the right. Nothing to do with OOP.
pjmlp · 4h ago
I think it needs a higher level experience across procedural, logical, functional and object based languages, the unique ways each one applies ideas into their programming model, how that interacts to CS, for finally understanding how those concepts come together, instead of being so fixated in language syntax.
motorest · 1h ago
> When you have UFCS you can toss out 90% of the uses of methods in favor of just plain ole functions.
Can those go away if you use inheritance or polymorphism, and you need your functions to access protected or private members? I mean, OO is as much about methods as functional programming is about functions.
kmarc · 8h ago
Reminds me of vim script's implicit method syntax [1]
Eg. any function call can be converted to a method call on the function's first parameter:
let mylist = [3, 2, 1]
" prints "1" as these two are equivalent
echo sort(mylist) == mylist->sort()
Helps a lot with chaining.
layer8 · 12h ago
Dot syntax tends to work better for code completion, though.
In addition, without uniform call syntax, adding a new method can only break subclasses, whereas with uniform call syntax it can break other client code.
Doxin · 6h ago
There's nothing preventing UFCS from working with code completion. e.g. given:
int addOne(int v){
return v+1;
}
You can now write code like this:
int foo=3;
writeln(foo.addOne);
There is absolutely no reason that typing "foo." would not suggest "addOne" as possibility.
layer8 · 5h ago
My comment was about the reverse, using function syntax for methods.
Furthermore, I don’t think it necessarily makes sense for all functions that happen to take, say, a string as their first argument, to be listed in the code completion for method invocation on a string variable.
If you merely want to define auxiliary methods outside of a class, which is the thing the GP seems to like, that’s what’s usually called “extension methods”. It doesn’t require uniform call syntax.
Doxin · 4h ago
> using function syntax for methods
hmm, yeah fair enough I suppose. I don't think I've found a good use-case for that yet. I guess having the symmetry there makes the feature easier to explain at least? I dunno.
> Furthermore, I don’t think it necessarily makes sense for all functions that happen to take, say, a string as their first argument, to be listed in the code completion for method invocation on a string variable.
All functions in scope that happen to take a string as their first argument. If this turns into an actual problem in practice it's quite doable to refactor things such that it's not an issue.
I find that when I use autocomplete I'll be typing the first bit of the method name in any case. I never "browse" autocomplete to look for the thing I need.
Extension methods are another way to do the same thing yes, but that feels like special-casing behavior, where UFCS is more general. With extension methods you need to think of how to implement it wrt things that don't usually have methods attached. With UFCS that just works the way you'd expect it to.
girvo · 7h ago
I was about to say "Yeah, its my favourite feature of Nim!" and then I realised what account I was replying to ;)
jayd16 · 13h ago
If all you're doing is accessing public members, sure.
nicwilson · 12h ago
`private` is only private to the module, not the struct/class, (In other words, all functions in the same module are all C++ style `friend`s) and so free function in same module work.
WalterBright · 13h ago
It works for all functions that have parameters, `f(a)` and `a.f()` are equivalent.
jayd16 · 13h ago
Yes, but I presume that f() cannot access private members of a.
WalterBright · 12h ago
That's correct.
eric-p7 · 15h ago
It's a mystery why D isn't far more popular than it is. Fast compilation, familiar syntax, and supports a wider range of programming paradigms than most (any?) other language.
dataflow · 10h ago
> It's a mystery why D isn't far more popular than it is.
There's no mystery. It's a jack of all trades, master of none. E.g., the virality of the GC makes it a non-starter for its primary audience (C/C++ developers). The need to compile and the extra verbosity makes it a bad substitute for scripting like Python. Etc.
Basically, name any large niche you'd expect it to fill and you'll probably find there's a tool already better suited for that niche.
WalterBright · 4h ago
With D you don't have to use multiple languages, such as mixing Python with C. D is The One Language to Rule Them All.
(D's ability to use C code is to make use of existing C code. There's not much point to writing C code to use with D.)
dataflow · 4h ago
> D is The One Language to Rule Them All.
That's kind of why I said it's the "jack of all trades". It's not a bad language, it just doesn't beat any existing languages I know of in their own niches (hence "master of none"), so few people are going to find it useful to drop any existing languages and use D in lieu of them.
jibal · 2h ago
It's amusing to see someone telling the designer and implementer of a language that he has put decades of effort into that "it's not a bad language".
tialaramex · 34m ago
It's better than the feedback I would have for, to give an example, Bjarne Stroustrup. Bjarne has spent so far as I can tell almost all of his adult life on C++. It's a huge bloated mess, and though there are many other guilty parties I don't think I can even say he was a good influence.
quietbritishjim · 2h ago
One of C++'s great weaknesses is that it is just a huge language with too much stuff in. There are lots of reasons why this is, not worth re-exploring, but the point stands.
There is a great irony that a replacement to C++ should have lots of features in it. (Not necessarily the same too-many features.) One of the key requirements of a real C++ alternative would be fewer language features.
pjmlp · 25m ago
It is telling that Ada and Rust are only ones that many people in the C++ community would ever consider.
Because at the scale many companies use C++, the additions into ISO C++, for how bad WG21 process currently might be, don't land there because a group of academics found a cool feature, rather some company or individual has seen it as a must have feature for their industry.
Sadly also a similar reason on how you end up with extension spaghetti on Khronos APIs, CSS levels or what have you.
Naturally any wannabe C++ replacement to be taken seriously by such industries, has to offer similar flexibility in featuritis.
bachmeier · 10h ago
> the virality of the GC makes it a non-starter for its primary audience (C/C++ developers)
No. If you were to say you need the GC to use all features of the language and standard library, of course, the GC does important things, but to claim a C developer wouldn't be comfortable with it because of the GC is nonsense. Just don't allocate with the GC and use the same mechanisms you'd use with C (and then build on top of them with things like @safe, reference counting, and unique pointers).
dataflow · 10h ago
>> the virality of the GC
> Just don't allocate with the GC
"virality" is not just a word you can ignore.
bachmeier · 9h ago
I don't understand. If you're a C programmer and want to avoid the GC, there's nothing to be viral.
dataflow · 9h ago
> If you're a C programmer and want to avoid the GC, there's nothing to be viral.
What you're suggesting is the moral equivalent of "it's easy to avoid diseases, just avoid contact with those infected", or "it's easy to avoid allergens, just avoid foods you're allergic to", or "it's easy to avoid contamination, just set up a cleanroom", or "it's easy to write deterministic code, just avoid randomness", etc.
Yes, there are things that are easy to achieve in the vacuum of outer space, but that's not where most people are interested in living.
brabel · 5h ago
Completely agree after trying it. Anything that may throw an Exception requires GC. There goes 80% of D code you could use. The rest becomes inaccessible for other, similar reasons quite often. Try writing D with @nogc and it takes 10 minutes to understand that. They want to make the situation better but there’s just not enough people to tackle the huge amount of work that requires (I.e. changing most of the stdlib)
dataflow · 5h ago
> Try writing D with @nogc and it takes 10 minutes to understand that.
Thank you. Yes, exactly. The problems aren't even subtle; it's impossible to miss them if you actually try. I don't recall even finding a reasonable way to concatenate or split strings on the heap and return them without a GC, let alone anything more complicated. It boggles my mind that people repeat the talking point that it's somehow practical to program with @nogc when the most basic operations are so painful. Nobody is going to drool at the idea of spending days/weeks of their lives reinventing nonstandard second-class-citizen counterparts to basic types like strings just to use a new language.
> They want to make the situation better but there’s just not enough people to tackle the huge amount of work that requires (I.e. changing most of the stdlib)
I don't agree that it's lack of manpower that's the problem -- at least, not yet. I think it's primarily the unwillingness to even admit this is a problem (an existential problem for the language, I think) and confront it instead of denying the reality, and secondarily the inertia and ecosystem around the existing language outside the standard library. It's not like the problem is subtle (like you said, a few minutes of coding makes it painfully obvious) or novel. The language has been out there for over a decade and a half, and people have been asking for no-GC version nearly that long. Yet, at least to the extent I've had the energy to follow it, the response has always been the canned you-can-totally-program-D-without-a-GC denials you see repeated for the millionth time here, or (at best) silence. If this sentiment has changed and I'm unaware of it, that's already significant progress.
Maybe the unwillingness to confront reality is due to the lack of manpower and how daunting the problem looks; I'm not sure. But it seems as bright as daylight that D is not going to be successful without solving this problem.
I tend to not use this sort of function because it doesn't manage its own memory. I use barray instead because it manages its memory using RAII. D provides enormous flexibility in managing memory. Or, you can just leave it to the gc to do it for you.
I feel you're demonstrating exactly the problems I highlighted through your example here -- including the very lack of acknowledgment of the overall problem.
Zardoz84 · 4h ago
Part of the problem it's trying to do too many things in too many fronts.
They try to implement a borrow-checker a la Rust. But feels very poorly compared against the Rust version.
It haves a "optional" GC, but it's a subpar GC. And lacks a way to use alternative GCs.
And funny, C++ has been copying many features that DLang have for many time ago. Beginning with the type inference (ie using "auto" to declare vars). And now, contractual programing and static reflection.
I really loved the language, but it's very sad that never manages to take off and become more popular and well maintained.
pjmlp · 20m ago
That has been the main problem from my point of view, too much pivoting looking for the right crowd, without finalizing what was done before.
And while some features in other languages might have seen an implementation first in D, claiming first to the finish line as it usually comes up, even on this thread, hardly does anything for language adoption.
On the contrary, it is one reason less leave those languages, as eventually they get the features, and already have the ecosystem.
bmacho · 3h ago
According to them[0], D as better C is indeed just C with less footguns and some additional optional features like RAII (that one can use or not) or more comptime assumptions (again, that one can use or ignore).
I don't think what hinders their adoption is their direction, everything they say they accomplished/plan to accomplish is ideal IMO.
> D as better C is indeed just C with less footguns and some additional features like RAII (that one can use or not) or more comptime assumptions (again, that one can use, or ignore)
Having strictly more features (if we even assume that, which I don't think is accurate) does not imply better.
Javascript is just JSON with more features too. Is it a mystery that people don't ship Javascript code everywhere instead of JSON?
unclad5968 · 8h ago
If I'm just coding C except a new syntax, why wouldn't I just stick with C?
dataflow · 8h ago
It's not just new syntax, you get other nice features too.
GoblinSlayer · 4h ago
When you use many languages, don't you become a jack of all trades, master of none? Also it's not obvious python is good for scripting, bash is better at short scripts, statically typed languages are better at long scripts, and you can't use it in CI yaml scripts. Python is more famous for data science and AI, not for scripting.
dataflow · 4h ago
I used "scripting" loosely (Python source files are frequently called Python scripts), I wasn't referring to shell scripts specifically. Feel free to pretend I said Bash or data science or whatever you want.
Re: your first sentence: I neither understand the logic nor do I understand how insulting the developer is going to help D succeed here even if the logic was sound.
bravetraveler · 3h ago
Python is useful for scripts that go beyond strings. For instance: making a series of API calls, parsing/processing/mutating.
That's not data science or AI; "more famous" -- ridiculous distinction.
Fun fact: Ansible is orchestrated Python. Half your Linux distribution of choice is a pile of Python scripts. It's everywhere.
p0nce · 1h ago
The full quote is: “Jack of all trades master of none, though oftentimes better than master of one.”
zem · 5h ago
it should at the very least fit the same niche golang does
dataflow · 5h ago
I almost mentioned Go as another example of what it doesn't substitute for, but decided to cut off the list. But no, I don't think it fits that niche either. Go has a lot of features D doesn't have. Just off the top of my head: it's very simple, it doesn't have pointer arithmetic (yes, that's a feature here), it performs escape analysis to automatically extend the lifetime of objects that escape the stack frame, etc.
WalterBright · 4h ago
D does not allow pointer arithmetic in code marked @safe.
D does escape analysis from an alternative direction. If a pointer is qualified with `scope`, the compiler guarantees it does not escape the stack frame.
dataflow · 4h ago
I'm well aware of those, and they obviously don't fill the gaps here.
globular-toast · 5h ago
Well that shouldn't be a mystery. Golang was marketed by Google.
WalterBright · 13h ago
We don't have a marketing budget, although we have many hard core users!
johnisgood · 13h ago
Is that really it? Why cannot you get a marketing budget, sponsored perhaps?
Are there any ways to do this that do not involve a bunch of "."s? I do not understand "map!" and "a.idup" either, FWIW.
I really want to like D, but it tries to do too many things all at once, in my opinion.
Perhaps I will give C3 a fair try.
johnisgood · 2h ago
Look, I will not comment on D any further because it seems like it gets down-voted for no reason. Take your positive comments if you so wish, no need to down-vote the ones that express different opinions. You won. I will not be commenting on it any further. I shall NEVER be expressing my opinions on this language, nor will I ever raise any questions regarding the motivation for its implementation details.
People are too quick to use the "down-vote" button, and are too quick to judge. I love documentation, I write them. I am an active speaker against people who hate reading the documentation. This was not a case against reading documentation, yet people - wrongfully - believed so. People always glance past things like: "not fond of", and "in my opinion". It is tiresome.
This thread could have been educational, but instead it was a thread meant to bash me. It is my fault.
WalterBright · 12h ago
That code is an example of f(a) being equivalent to a.f(). You can do it the f(a) way if you prefer.
`map` is an operation on a data structure that replaces one element with another, in this case `a` gets replaces with `idup(a)`. The `idup` makes a copy of its argument in memory, and marks the data is immutable.
sureglymop · 12h ago
So it's basically a pipe or like the pipe operator in some languages? Looks interesting.
JdeBP · 6h ago
It has a fairly direct analogy in some languages. A C♯ programmer reading the above will immediately recognize the analogy to .Select(), .ToArray(), and so forth from LiNQ.
Yup, it looks and behaves very much like Unix piping.
No comments yet
johnisgood · 12h ago
> That code is an example of f(a) being equivalent to a.f(). You can do it the f(a) way if you prefer.
How would it look like with this particular code? Just for comparison.
> The `idup` makes a copy of its argument in memory, and marks the data is immutable.
How is one supposed to know this? Reading the documentation? I really want to look at the code and be able to know straight away what it does, or have a rough idea.
p0nce · 1h ago
I don't think you're wrong, I have used D for 19 years and don't really use the UFCS dot style, it requires too much context. Just loops are more readable. In D you don't have much decisions forced on you tbh.
spacechild1 · 1h ago
> Reading the documentation?
Yes?
> I really want to look at the code and be able to know straight away what it does, or have a rough idea.
You said elsewhere that you love Perl. Would you say your sentence above applies to Perl?
johnisgood · 1h ago
It does not, but Perl is a much older language, and I have familiarized myself with it through actual discourses regarding its syntax, implementation details, and so forth. But in this thread? All I got was wrongful accusations and down-votes. I am done replying to this thread. Should have just let Walter reply, but that was not enough for you people, was it?
Funny though, because most of the things these people accuse me of are dead wrong, and my comment history is proof of that. In fact, I have been down-voted to oblivion for telling people to read the documentation. I guess we may have come full circle.
> As for idup... The first several search results for "dlang idup" are all useful.
Yes, I am sure it was, I am sure an LLM would have helped too, but I think that is besides the point here.
quietbritishjim · 2h ago
> > That code is an example of f(a) being equivalent to a.f(). You can do it the f(a) way if you prefer.
> How would it look like with this particular code? Just for comparison.
I do not know how to write D, so the following might not compile, but it's not hard to give it a go:
copy(sort(array(map!(uniq(byLine(stdin, KeepTerminator.yes)), a => idup(a)))), stdout.lockingTextWriter())
> > The `idup` makes a copy of its argument in memory, and marks the data is immutable.
> How is one supposed to know this? Reading the documentation? I really want to look at the code and be able to know straight away what it does, or have a rough idea.
Are you serious? You are offended by the idea of reading documentation?This is not helping the credibility of your argument. Again, I'm not a D user, but this is just silly.
johnisgood · 2h ago
> Are you serious? You are offended by the idea of reading documentation?This is not helping the credibility of your argument. Again, I'm not a D user, but this is just silly.
If you knew me, and you read my comment history, you would have NEVER said that. It is not even a matter of reading the documentation or not. "idup" seems arbitrary, sorry, I meant the whole line sounds arbitrary. Why "a"? Why "a.idup"? Why "map!"? I was asking genuine questions. You do not have to bash me and see ghosts. I was curious as to why it was implemented the way it was.
I am an active speaker against people who hate reading the documentation.
I think perhaps you are not realising the negative tone of your comments. There is no way to read "How is one supposed to know this? Reading the documentation?" except sarcasm. No amount of good faith in unrelated comment threads changes this. I believe that's why you're getting downvoted - not because people are easily offended about D, as you seem to believe.
johnisgood · 46m ago
Well, I did not intend my statement to be sarcastic. It was a genuine question. Blame my lack of social skills, or the fact that I am on the spectrum. I was curious about the implementation details, i.e. why "!" (in map), why "a", why "idup", etc. That is not to say I am reluctant to read the documentation, I am more than willing, but I wanted to know the story behind it. I have ideas, but they might be wrong. I do not want to guess when I can have a direct answer from Walter.
I spent quite a few year on/with it back in the day. There was D1 which was like a better C, and then there was D2 which was like a better C++. Personally I preferred where D1 was going (and Tango instead of Phobos) but even with D2 it really made the day compared to what was out there and to this day still to an extent is. The thing that killed it for me, and I know at least a couple of friends as well (outside of internal politics at a time) was what kills pretty much all exotics once you start using it. Lack of (up-to-date) libraries / bindings and tooling. At the end of the day that's what you do use for most of the work you're doing anyways - libraries. So suddenly you're doing all these bindings and battling tools instead of working on actual problem at hand. This gets tiresome real quick.
For some reason, and mostly that being Mozilla, Rust got quite an initial kick to overcome that initial hurdle in haste. We're not going to mention a lot of those libs are stale in Rust world, but at least they're there and that kind of gives you momentum to go forward. Whatever you're trying to do, there's a non-zero chance there's a library or something out there for you in Rust.. and we got there real quick which then encouraged people to proceed.
That's just like my opinion, man.. but I think a key part is that first lib bindings hurdle which Rust somehow went over real quick for a critical mass of it; D hasn't.
Love the D though lol, and Walter is a 10000x programmer if you ever saw one but it might be time to hang the hat. I can only imagine how a community like Rust or I don't know Zig of those up-and-coming would benefit from his help and insights. He'd probably single-handedly make rust compile 100x faster. One can hope.
mamcx · 13h ago
Stressing the point, Rust ship very early with formatter, linter, cargo, rustup, and was not that behind in terms of editor support.
That is basically table stakes for a new language now.
jadbox · 12h ago
I've heard nice things about Zig being a more ergo alternative to Rust, but I haven't seen anyone compare it to D yet. From my brief testing, it seemed like Zig wasn't as ergo as D, but in theory it could evolve to maybe get there. From the outside, it doesn't seem like Zig has made any super major ergo improvements in the last year, but I could be wrong.
pjmlp · 13m ago
Being a Modula-2 like safety language with curly brackets, plenty of @ and .{ } characters already puts it off for me.
For me any alternative to Rust implies having automatic resource managment, eventually coupled with improved type system, in a mix of affine types, linear types, effects or dependent types.
Something that in regards to safety is already available today by using GCC's Modula-2 frontend, FreePascal and similar, is not bringing too much to the table, comptime notwithstanding.
wavemode · 7h ago
I don't know if I would describe Zig as ergonomic per se. It has some nice features, but the main focus is on completely explicit control over low-level details. In its design Zig always chooses explicitness and programmer control over ergonomics. If a language feature requires a lot of compiler magic then it's probably never going to be added.
steveklabnik · 14h ago
I spent time back in the day with D as well, incidentally. I wonder if we crossed paths back then.
Keyframe · 13h ago
for sure we did, Steve! Sometimes multiple times a day even, hah. Check out
@keyframe2 on bsky or @keyframe on the evil platform and let's reconnect.
steveklabnik · 13h ago
Ha, that was so long ago I can barely remember a lot of it. I’ll give you a follow!
mrkeen · 5h ago
Articles like this I guess. If these are the 'lovable' features I'd hate to see the 'meh' features.
Automatic constructors - You only have to write the 'make me a box of two apples' code and not 'this is how two apples go into a box'! This is as revolutionary as 'automatic function calls', where you don't have to manually push the instruction pointer to pop it back off later.
Parenthesis omission!
If I were to parody this I'd talk about how good Scala is - in addition to classes, you can also declare objects, saving you the effort of typing out the static keyword on each member.
Sell me something nice! Millions of threads on a node. Structured concurrency. Hygienic macros. Homoiconicity. Higher-kinded types. Decent type inference. Pure functions. Transactions.
D's pure functions are quite strict. It can be a challenge to write a function that passes strict purity guarantees - but the result is worth it!
GZGavinZhao · 6h ago
Mostly wrong place at the wrong time, I guess :(
Plus the chicken and the egg problem. This is mostly from the AerynOS experience : it seems like if you want to write some moderately complicated code then you're becoming the upstream of many libraries. Especially now with Rust's popularity and ecosystem maturity on the rise, it's super hard to convince people (e.g. your boss) that you'd be better of with D compared to e.g. Rust.
WalterBright · 4h ago
Where D shines is how readable D code is compared to other languages.
nicoburns · 14h ago
I'd say that the compiler not being open source during the period when it might otherwise have become popular is probably a pretty big factor.
destructionator · 14h ago
The D parts of the compiler were released under the GPL from almost the beginning, since 2002. By 2004, a full open source compiler - what we now call gdc, officially part of gcc - was released using this GPL code. D was pretty popular in these years.
nickpp · 14h ago
Lack of large “sponsors”.
zem · 14h ago
scala is probably the poster child for supporting every paradigm you might want to use :) oz/mozart has more but that was essentially a research/teaching language specifically designed to use a wide range of paradigms in order to demonstrate them.
troupo · 5h ago
IIRC it was weird and not that great in D1 era, and stalled for a very long time. There were also two competing incompatible runtimes.
Then came the D2 re-write which broke backwards compatibility and took another few years.
In the meantime everyone moved on
OskarS · 15h ago
The "invariants" thing is fantastic, I haven't seen anything like that before and it's great. The C++26 contract stuff is fine, but this seems like a really great way of ensuring type invariants, I think I'd use this way more if it was in C++.
discardable_dan · 12h ago
The issue is most developers do not bother to write any, and the ones that are written are most-often vapid typing failures ("these`int`s cannot be negative" should be handled by a type). I studied this field in grad school, and the entire problem almost always devolves into convincing developers to engage with the system.
wavemode · 11h ago
I find that is the case with almost all methodologies for software quality improvement. If you can't enforce that people follow it then it's not worth anything.
esafak · 10h ago
It only takes one enlightened CTO :)
pjmlp · 5h ago
See Design By Contract, and the language that brought its ideas into mainstream, Eiffel.
What D or C++26 can do, is a subset of Eiffel capabilities, or more modern approaches like theorem proving in tools like Ada/SPARK, Dafny, FStar,...
scrubs · 5h ago
Beat me to it. Eiffel et al have been at the party for a while now.
destructionator · 14h ago
Just a personal anecdote, Walter Bright's Digital Mars C++ compiler also had the contracts (D started life almost literally as recycled code from Mr. Bright's other compilers - he wrote a native Java compiler, a Javascript 1.3 stdlib, and a C++ compiler with a bunch of extensions.... smash those together and you have the early D releases!).
Anyway, I used the DM C++ compiler originally because it was the only one I could download to the high school computers without filling out a form, and pimply-face youth me saw "DESIGN BY CONTRACT" at the top of the website and got kinda excited thinking it was a way to make some easy money coding online.
Imagine my disappointment when I saw it was just in/out/invariant/assert features. (I'm pretty sure D had just come out when I saw that, but I saw `import` instead of `#include` and dismissed it as a weenie language. Came back a couple years later and cursed my younger self for being a fool! lol)
`import` is so cool we extended it to be able to import .c files! The D compiler internally translates them to D so they can be used. When this was initially proposed, the reaction was "what's that good for?" It turned out to be incredibly useful and a huge time saver.
The concept is sort of like C++ being a superset of C and so being able to incorporate C code, except unlike C++, the C syntax can be left behind. After all, don't we get tired of:
struct Tag { ... } Tag;
?
1718627440 · 4h ago
> struct Tag { ... } Tag;
What's the thing with the syntax? If you don't intend to use the type elsewhere don't give it a tag, if you want, you have to give it a name. (Assuming you are annoyed by the duplicate Tag)
Modern C++ is slowly adopting D features, many of which came from extensions I added to my C++ compiler.
vbezhenar · 6h ago
I feel like this feature could be implemented on top of more universal features.
Checking input parameters is easy, just write asserts at the start of the function.
Checking result requires "destructor" block and some kind of accessible result variable, so you can write asserts in this destructor block which you can place at the start of the function, as well.
Checking class invariants requires a way to specify that some function should be called at the end of every public function. I think, it's called aspect-oriented programming in Java and it's actually useful for more things, than just invariant checking. Declarative transaction management, logging.
There are probably two schools of programming language designs. Some put a lot of features into language and other trying to put a minimal number of features into language which are enough to express other features.
sirwhinesalot · 5h ago
Having the higher level abstraction built into the language gives extra semantic meaning that can be taken advantage of to build tooling. For example, one could build a symbolic model checker based on the contract specifications. It would be possible to do the same with the lower level features, but a lot harder if they aren't used consistently and correctly.
Same reason function calls are better than arbitrary jumps.
No comments yet
peterashford · 13h ago
I think they were introduced with Eiffel, which was all about design by contract
const MIN_U32 = 0;
const MAX_U32 = 2 ** 32 - 1;
function u32(v) {
if (v < MIN_U32 || v > MAX_U32) {
throw Error(`Value out of range for u32: ${v}`);
}
return leb128(v);
}
You can do this, in Ada:
subtype U32 is Interfaces.Unsigned_64 range 0 .. 2 ** 32 - 1;
Does D have anything like this? Or do any other languages?
12_throw_away · 14h ago
Yeah, these look excellent. Am curious if D's invariants can be traced back to Ada/Spark at all (I don't know much about Ada except that it has these sorts of safety features).
>The "invariants" thing is fantastic, I haven't seen anything like that before and it's great.
is it not the same as the one in Eiffel?
almostgotcaught · 14h ago
> Invariants are functions that run at the start and end of every public member function
these are just runtime assertions
EDIT: how am i getting downvoted for copy-pasting literally what the article verifies?
LorenDB · 11h ago
Yes, but they are guaranteed to run at the beginning and end. C/C++ asserts need to handle any return path, whereas D has functionality to mark statements to run at the end of any return path while only being written once.
He demonstrated it with C++ templates, but the D one is far more straightforward.
jayd16 · 13h ago
I think there's something to be said about them running automatically that is lost when you say they're just asserts.
almostgotcaught · 12h ago
i don't get it - if do
int foo(int a) {
assert(a > 5);
int b = a * 10;
assert(b > 50);
return b;
}
do you think those asserts don't "run automatically"?
gblargg · 11h ago
You define the invariants once for the class and they are run around every public function. Done manually you'd probably use a helper object that calls the invariants in its constructor and destructor (have to handle exceptions) that you have to add to every public function's definition.
readthenotes1 · 13h ago
Maybe it's the editorial "just"?
Like: software programs can't be that difficult to create properly because they are just 1s and 0s.
johnisgood · 13h ago
This is not the first time someone getting down-voted for using the word "just". I do not know if this really is warranted, however.
jadbox · 12h ago
Has anyone compared D and Zig? I originally learned D over one weekend and then went on to completed several code competitions- the ergonomics of D are just fantastic.
ImPleadThe5th · 3h ago
I was wondering the same thing. I have done a few toy projects in Zig, but found some of the docs lacking when you start to get into the weeds.
Alifatisk · 15h ago
I like D, it's fascinating and powerful language. It made it even more curious when I watched Tsodings video on D. One thing that came to my mind when reading the article is that things like int.init instead of 0 and $ as shorthand for array.length does add to the mental load.
One good memory I had is a couple of years ago when I built a little forum using D. Man the site was blazing fast, like the interaction was instant. Good times.
WalterBright · 13h ago
The `.init` is there because the default initializer isn't always 0.
fuzztester · 2h ago
forum.dlang.org is also written in D.
p0nce · 1h ago
Strangely my favourite feature after 18 years of D programming (!) is that could place keywords largely in the order you like. It is strangely liberating to be able to put:
pure nothrow @nogc:
or
pure:
nothrow:
@nogc:
or
pure nothrow @nogc
{
block
}
Sometimes this helps readability.
quietbritishjim · 52m ago
Am I missing something? Those three keywords are literally in the same order in all the examples.
p0nce · 25s ago
Sorry, those keywords work in block like those, or relatively to a single function, in any order.
zzo38computer · 11h ago
In my opinion, some features of D are good, but I do not like all of them.
CTFE is good.
I do not really like the UFCS; if you want it to be used like a member of the first parameter then you should define it as a member of the first parameter (possibly as a inline function that only calls the freestanding function with the same name, if that is what you want it to do). (You could use a macro to do this automatically if you want to.)
Scoped imports is good, but I think that scoped macros would also be helpful.
Exhaustive switch seem like it might be better if designed differently than it is, but the idea seems to be not bad, in general.
Doxin · 5h ago
Honestly the main reason UFCS is good is when you don't "own" the type your function would need to be a member of. Most common one I run into is the "to" function from the stdlib. You can do this:
import std.conv;
int foo=3;
string bar = foo.to!string
But now lets say you want to convert ints to MyCustomInts? You can hardly attach a new "to" member to int, but with UFCS it's easy. Just declare a to function anywhere in scope:
MyCustomInt to(T)(T v) if(is(T==int)){
return MyCustomInt.from_int_value(v)
// or however you actually do the conversion
}
and it'll magically work:
int foo=3;
MyCustomInt bar = foo.to!MyCustomInt;
LorenDB · 11h ago
UFCS is a bit overreaching but I think it's great for its intended use of chaining expressions on ranges and such.
destructionator · 9h ago
that actually wasn't its intended use; that's a side effect. The original intended use came from Effective C++ by Scott Meyers: "Prefer non-member non-friend functions to member functions.". It was meant to make that as syntactically appealing as the members.
burnt-resistor · 11h ago
Invariants, dependent typing, and refinement types FTW.
In Rust land, it really need integration of something like flux into the language or as a gradually-compatible layer.
Can't have safe software without invariant checking, and not just stopping at bounds checking.
azhenley · 12h ago
I really enjoy these lists of interesting features from various languages. They pop up occasionally on HN but now I can’t find them (Hillel Wayne had multiple).
I want a meta list of all these interesting features across languages.
In concrete, looks to me to be the only language that covers the major ways to do it.
(In concrete the `scope` way is the one I found inspiring. . I think the exceptions can go and be replace by it for langs where exceptions are removed)
WalterBright · 13h ago
`scope` is very good at its job. It guarantees that a pointer passed as an argument does not escape the caller's scope. I find it almost as useful as transitive `const`.
bachmeier · 9h ago
Interesting that there's nothing on there about C interop (likely reflecting the use cases of the author). D does it all: ImportC (compile C code), BetterC (make a D library part of a C program), and easy C interop in both directions.
randomNumber7 · 4h ago
When I last looked at D they did a lot of interesting stuff with compile time function execution and s.th. like dependent types that they hacked into the language.
Can someone give me an update about the current state of this?
sirwhinesalot · 5h ago
All wonderful features. Design by Contract in particular is massively underused in mainstream languages.
kwoff · 8h ago
Dlang always makes me think of two things: Walter Bright, resident of Hacker News. And awesome games I played on Linux in the 2000s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABA_Games
WhereIsTheTruth · 2h ago
I am an avid fan of D, but they seriously need to massively invest into tooling
The current LSP is _that_ bad, it doesn't even recognize most notable D features such as templates and named arguments..
This should be their #1 priority, as the language is starting to get steam again, they should not miss tat opportunity
I know Walter does not use that kind of tools, but that's becoming a requirement nowadays for young developers
Please, invest into tooling!
coldtea · 2h ago
Not the D I expected from reading the title
(come on, a low effort joke now and then is ok, if not for anything else, as an counter-example)
trikko · 2h ago
The only missing thing is a big sponsor.
mozilla -> rust
google -> go, kotlin
...
n/a -> dlang
throwawaymaths · 12h ago
$ operator. great idea! i believe the only contender is julia (with "end" but that is a SUUPER awkward keyword since end also closes functions)
> Structs and classes can even overload this operator
nope. fuck, now it's a terrible idea
sedatk · 8h ago
> i believe the only contender is julia
C# has "^n" notation that means "length - n". For example:
Take the last element of an array or any other structure that supports indices:
var a = ar[^1];
Take the last three elements of an array or any other data structure that supports ranges:
var lastThree = ar[^3..];
bachmeier · 10h ago
I don't see why it would be a terrible idea. It's pretty convenient if you're slicing a multidimensional array.
throwawaymaths · 7h ago
except are you sure that's what it's doing? it could have been overloaded. you have to ask yourself that every time.
Doxin · 5h ago
Or you can assume it's implemented sanely. Yes if someone overrides $ and does something wildly wrong with it that'll get confusing. That's the fault of whoever wrote that code though, not of $ itself.
You can also overload +, imagine the mayhem if someone did something weird with that. should we ban overloading operators altogether?
WhereIsTheTruth · 2h ago
I'll take this:
Vec2 result = translation + (rotationMatrix * (scalingMatrix * point));
Over this:
const result = vec2Add(translation, mat2MulVec2(rotationMatrix, mat2MulVec2(scalingMatrix, point)));
Anytime
And that's a very simple example, in Zig, that kind of equations doesn't scale well, when it comes to readability
ioasuncvinvaer · 1h ago
A problem that I always run into with code using * for multiplication of matrices is which operation they use. Is it element wise or a matrix multiplication?
UFCS is such an underrated language feature. When you have UFCS you can toss out 90% of the uses of methods in favor of just plain ole functions. Add generic functions and concepts and you rarely end up needing OO support.
Can those go away if you use inheritance or polymorphism, and you need your functions to access protected or private members? I mean, OO is as much about methods as functional programming is about functions.
Eg. any function call can be converted to a method call on the function's first parameter:
Helps a lot with chaining.In addition, without uniform call syntax, adding a new method can only break subclasses, whereas with uniform call syntax it can break other client code.
Furthermore, I don’t think it necessarily makes sense for all functions that happen to take, say, a string as their first argument, to be listed in the code completion for method invocation on a string variable.
If you merely want to define auxiliary methods outside of a class, which is the thing the GP seems to like, that’s what’s usually called “extension methods”. It doesn’t require uniform call syntax.
hmm, yeah fair enough I suppose. I don't think I've found a good use-case for that yet. I guess having the symmetry there makes the feature easier to explain at least? I dunno.
> Furthermore, I don’t think it necessarily makes sense for all functions that happen to take, say, a string as their first argument, to be listed in the code completion for method invocation on a string variable.
All functions in scope that happen to take a string as their first argument. If this turns into an actual problem in practice it's quite doable to refactor things such that it's not an issue.
I find that when I use autocomplete I'll be typing the first bit of the method name in any case. I never "browse" autocomplete to look for the thing I need.
Extension methods are another way to do the same thing yes, but that feels like special-casing behavior, where UFCS is more general. With extension methods you need to think of how to implement it wrt things that don't usually have methods attached. With UFCS that just works the way you'd expect it to.
There's no mystery. It's a jack of all trades, master of none. E.g., the virality of the GC makes it a non-starter for its primary audience (C/C++ developers). The need to compile and the extra verbosity makes it a bad substitute for scripting like Python. Etc.
Basically, name any large niche you'd expect it to fill and you'll probably find there's a tool already better suited for that niche.
(D's ability to use C code is to make use of existing C code. There's not much point to writing C code to use with D.)
That's kind of why I said it's the "jack of all trades". It's not a bad language, it just doesn't beat any existing languages I know of in their own niches (hence "master of none"), so few people are going to find it useful to drop any existing languages and use D in lieu of them.
There is a great irony that a replacement to C++ should have lots of features in it. (Not necessarily the same too-many features.) One of the key requirements of a real C++ alternative would be fewer language features.
Because at the scale many companies use C++, the additions into ISO C++, for how bad WG21 process currently might be, don't land there because a group of academics found a cool feature, rather some company or individual has seen it as a must have feature for their industry.
Sadly also a similar reason on how you end up with extension spaghetti on Khronos APIs, CSS levels or what have you.
Naturally any wannabe C++ replacement to be taken seriously by such industries, has to offer similar flexibility in featuritis.
No. If you were to say you need the GC to use all features of the language and standard library, of course, the GC does important things, but to claim a C developer wouldn't be comfortable with it because of the GC is nonsense. Just don't allocate with the GC and use the same mechanisms you'd use with C (and then build on top of them with things like @safe, reference counting, and unique pointers).
> Just don't allocate with the GC
"virality" is not just a word you can ignore.
What you're suggesting is the moral equivalent of "it's easy to avoid diseases, just avoid contact with those infected", or "it's easy to avoid allergens, just avoid foods you're allergic to", or "it's easy to avoid contamination, just set up a cleanroom", or "it's easy to write deterministic code, just avoid randomness", etc.
Yes, there are things that are easy to achieve in the vacuum of outer space, but that's not where most people are interested in living.
Thank you. Yes, exactly. The problems aren't even subtle; it's impossible to miss them if you actually try. I don't recall even finding a reasonable way to concatenate or split strings on the heap and return them without a GC, let alone anything more complicated. It boggles my mind that people repeat the talking point that it's somehow practical to program with @nogc when the most basic operations are so painful. Nobody is going to drool at the idea of spending days/weeks of their lives reinventing nonstandard second-class-citizen counterparts to basic types like strings just to use a new language.
> They want to make the situation better but there’s just not enough people to tackle the huge amount of work that requires (I.e. changing most of the stdlib)
I don't agree that it's lack of manpower that's the problem -- at least, not yet. I think it's primarily the unwillingness to even admit this is a problem (an existential problem for the language, I think) and confront it instead of denying the reality, and secondarily the inertia and ecosystem around the existing language outside the standard library. It's not like the problem is subtle (like you said, a few minutes of coding makes it painfully obvious) or novel. The language has been out there for over a decade and a half, and people have been asking for no-GC version nearly that long. Yet, at least to the extent I've had the energy to follow it, the response has always been the canned you-can-totally-program-D-without-a-GC denials you see repeated for the millionth time here, or (at best) silence. If this sentiment has changed and I'm unaware of it, that's already significant progress.
Maybe the unwillingness to confront reality is due to the lack of manpower and how daunting the problem looks; I'm not sure. But it seems as bright as daylight that D is not going to be successful without solving this problem.
https://github.com/dlang/dmd/blob/master/compiler/src/dmd/ba...
It's pretty minimalist on purpose. I don't much care for kitchen sink types.
The BetterC is the no-gc version. Use the -betterC switch on the compiler.
Or, if you want a string result,
I tend to not use this sort of function because it doesn't manage its own memory. I use barray instead because it manages its memory using RAII. D provides enormous flexibility in managing memory. Or, you can just leave it to the gc to do it for you.I feel you're demonstrating exactly the problems I highlighted through your example here -- including the very lack of acknowledgment of the overall problem.
And funny, C++ has been copying many features that DLang have for many time ago. Beginning with the type inference (ie using "auto" to declare vars). And now, contractual programing and static reflection.
I really loved the language, but it's very sad that never manages to take off and become more popular and well maintained.
And while some features in other languages might have seen an implementation first in D, claiming first to the finish line as it usually comes up, even on this thread, hardly does anything for language adoption.
On the contrary, it is one reason less leave those languages, as eventually they get the features, and already have the ecosystem.
I don't think what hinders their adoption is their direction, everything they say they accomplished/plan to accomplish is ideal IMO.
[0] : https://dlang.org/spec/betterc.html#retained
Having strictly more features (if we even assume that, which I don't think is accurate) does not imply better.
Javascript is just JSON with more features too. Is it a mystery that people don't ship Javascript code everywhere instead of JSON?
Re: your first sentence: I neither understand the logic nor do I understand how insulting the developer is going to help D succeed here even if the logic was sound.
That's not data science or AI; "more famous" -- ridiculous distinction.
Fun fact: Ansible is orchestrated Python. Half your Linux distribution of choice is a pile of Python scripts. It's everywhere.
D does escape analysis from an alternative direction. If a pointer is qualified with `scope`, the compiler guarantees it does not escape the stack frame.
BTW:
I am not fond of stuff like:
Are there any ways to do this that do not involve a bunch of "."s? I do not understand "map!" and "a.idup" either, FWIW.I really want to like D, but it tries to do too many things all at once, in my opinion.
Perhaps I will give C3 a fair try.
People are too quick to use the "down-vote" button, and are too quick to judge. I love documentation, I write them. I am an active speaker against people who hate reading the documentation. This was not a case against reading documentation, yet people - wrongfully - believed so. People always glance past things like: "not fond of", and "in my opinion". It is tiresome.
This thread could have been educational, but instead it was a thread meant to bash me. It is my fault.
`map` is an operation on a data structure that replaces one element with another, in this case `a` gets replaces with `idup(a)`. The `idup` makes a copy of its argument in memory, and marks the data is immutable.
* https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/dotnet/api/system.linq.enu...
* https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/dotnet/api/system.linq.enu...
No comments yet
How would it look like with this particular code? Just for comparison.
> The `idup` makes a copy of its argument in memory, and marks the data is immutable.
How is one supposed to know this? Reading the documentation? I really want to look at the code and be able to know straight away what it does, or have a rough idea.
Yes?
> I really want to look at the code and be able to know straight away what it does, or have a rough idea.
You said elsewhere that you love Perl. Would you say your sentence above applies to Perl?
Funny though, because most of the things these people accuse me of are dead wrong, and my comment history is proof of that. In fact, I have been down-voted to oblivion for telling people to read the documentation. I guess we may have come full circle.
Glad we had this utterly pointless chat.
As for idup... The first several search results for "dlang idup" are all useful.
> I really want to look at the code and be able to know straight away what it does, or have a rough idea.
I presume you really don't like perl, ML based (ocaml, f sharp, rust) Haskell or K.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44359539
> As for idup... The first several search results for "dlang idup" are all useful.
Yes, I am sure it was, I am sure an LLM would have helped too, but I think that is besides the point here.
> How would it look like with this particular code? Just for comparison.
I do not know how to write D, so the following might not compile, but it's not hard to give it a go:
> > The `idup` makes a copy of its argument in memory, and marks the data is immutable.> How is one supposed to know this? Reading the documentation? I really want to look at the code and be able to know straight away what it does, or have a rough idea.
Are you serious? You are offended by the idea of reading documentation?This is not helping the credibility of your argument. Again, I'm not a D user, but this is just silly.
If you knew me, and you read my comment history, you would have NEVER said that. It is not even a matter of reading the documentation or not. "idup" seems arbitrary, sorry, I meant the whole line sounds arbitrary. Why "a"? Why "a.idup"? Why "map!"? I was asking genuine questions. You do not have to bash me and see ghosts. I was curious as to why it was implemented the way it was.
I am an active speaker against people who hate reading the documentation.
And FYI, I love Perl[1] and OCaml[2].
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44359539
[2] You would have to check the comment history.
I prefer Elixir's |> operator, if you want an example of something I prefer.
For some reason, and mostly that being Mozilla, Rust got quite an initial kick to overcome that initial hurdle in haste. We're not going to mention a lot of those libs are stale in Rust world, but at least they're there and that kind of gives you momentum to go forward. Whatever you're trying to do, there's a non-zero chance there's a library or something out there for you in Rust.. and we got there real quick which then encouraged people to proceed.
That's just like my opinion, man.. but I think a key part is that first lib bindings hurdle which Rust somehow went over real quick for a critical mass of it; D hasn't.
Love the D though lol, and Walter is a 10000x programmer if you ever saw one but it might be time to hang the hat. I can only imagine how a community like Rust or I don't know Zig of those up-and-coming would benefit from his help and insights. He'd probably single-handedly make rust compile 100x faster. One can hope.
That is basically table stakes for a new language now.
For me any alternative to Rust implies having automatic resource managment, eventually coupled with improved type system, in a mix of affine types, linear types, effects or dependent types.
Something that in regards to safety is already available today by using GCC's Modula-2 frontend, FreePascal and similar, is not bringing too much to the table, comptime notwithstanding.
Automatic constructors - You only have to write the 'make me a box of two apples' code and not 'this is how two apples go into a box'! This is as revolutionary as 'automatic function calls', where you don't have to manually push the instruction pointer to pop it back off later.
Parenthesis omission!
If I were to parody this I'd talk about how good Scala is - in addition to classes, you can also declare objects, saving you the effort of typing out the static keyword on each member.
Sell me something nice! Millions of threads on a node. Structured concurrency. Hygienic macros. Homoiconicity. Higher-kinded types. Decent type inference. Pure functions. Transactions.
https://dlang.org/spec/function.html#pure-functions
D's pure functions are quite strict. It can be a challenge to write a function that passes strict purity guarantees - but the result is worth it!
Plus the chicken and the egg problem. This is mostly from the AerynOS experience : it seems like if you want to write some moderately complicated code then you're becoming the upstream of many libraries. Especially now with Rust's popularity and ecosystem maturity on the rise, it's super hard to convince people (e.g. your boss) that you'd be better of with D compared to e.g. Rust.
Then came the D2 re-write which broke backwards compatibility and took another few years.
In the meantime everyone moved on
What D or C++26 can do, is a subset of Eiffel capabilities, or more modern approaches like theorem proving in tools like Ada/SPARK, Dafny, FStar,...
Anyway, I used the DM C++ compiler originally because it was the only one I could download to the high school computers without filling out a form, and pimply-face youth me saw "DESIGN BY CONTRACT" at the top of the website and got kinda excited thinking it was a way to make some easy money coding online.
Imagine my disappointment when I saw it was just in/out/invariant/assert features. (I'm pretty sure D had just come out when I saw that, but I saw `import` instead of `#include` and dismissed it as a weenie language. Came back a couple years later and cursed my younger self for being a fool! lol)
`import` is so cool we extended it to be able to import .c files! The D compiler internally translates them to D so they can be used. When this was initially proposed, the reaction was "what's that good for?" It turned out to be incredibly useful and a huge time saver.
The concept is sort of like C++ being a superset of C and so being able to incorporate C code, except unlike C++, the C syntax can be left behind. After all, don't we get tired of:
What's the thing with the syntax? If you don't intend to use the type elsewhere don't give it a tag, if you want, you have to give it a name. (Assuming you are annoyed by the duplicate Tag)
Modern C++ is slowly adopting D features, many of which came from extensions I added to my C++ compiler.
Checking input parameters is easy, just write asserts at the start of the function.
Checking result requires "destructor" block and some kind of accessible result variable, so you can write asserts in this destructor block which you can place at the start of the function, as well.
Checking class invariants requires a way to specify that some function should be called at the end of every public function. I think, it's called aspect-oriented programming in Java and it's actually useful for more things, than just invariant checking. Declarative transaction management, logging.
There are probably two schools of programming language designs. Some put a lot of features into language and other trying to put a minimal number of features into language which are enough to express other features.
Same reason function calls are better than arbitrary jumps.
No comments yet
But what I love the most is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43936007
Instead of:
You can do this, in Ada: or alternatively: and then you can use attributes such as: Does D have anything like this? Or do any other languages?is it not the same as the one in Eiffel?
these are just runtime assertions
EDIT: how am i getting downvoted for copy-pasting literally what the article verifies?
See also the scope(exit) feature.
https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/experimental/scope_exit.ht...
He demonstrated it with C++ templates, but the D one is far more straightforward.
Like: software programs can't be that difficult to create properly because they are just 1s and 0s.
One good memory I had is a couple of years ago when I built a little forum using D. Man the site was blazing fast, like the interaction was instant. Good times.
CTFE is good.
I do not really like the UFCS; if you want it to be used like a member of the first parameter then you should define it as a member of the first parameter (possibly as a inline function that only calls the freestanding function with the same name, if that is what you want it to do). (You could use a macro to do this automatically if you want to.)
Scoped imports is good, but I think that scoped macros would also be helpful.
Exhaustive switch seem like it might be better if designed differently than it is, but the idea seems to be not bad, in general.
In Rust land, it really need integration of something like flux into the language or as a gradually-compatible layer.
Can't have safe software without invariant checking, and not just stopping at bounds checking.
I want a meta list of all these interesting features across languages.
EDIT: I found one! “Micro features I’d like to see in more languages” https://buttondown.com/hillelwayne/archive/microfeatures-id-...
https://dlang.org/articles/exception-safe.html
In concrete, looks to me to be the only language that covers the major ways to do it.
(In concrete the `scope` way is the one I found inspiring. . I think the exceptions can go and be replace by it for langs where exceptions are removed)
Can someone give me an update about the current state of this?
The current LSP is _that_ bad, it doesn't even recognize most notable D features such as templates and named arguments..
This should be their #1 priority, as the language is starting to get steam again, they should not miss tat opportunity
I know Walter does not use that kind of tools, but that's becoming a requirement nowadays for young developers
Please, invest into tooling!
(come on, a low effort joke now and then is ok, if not for anything else, as an counter-example)
> Structs and classes can even overload this operator
nope. fuck, now it's a terrible idea
C# has "^n" notation that means "length - n". For example:
Take the last element of an array or any other structure that supports indices:
Take the last three elements of an array or any other data structure that supports ranges:You can also overload +, imagine the mayhem if someone did something weird with that. should we ban overloading operators altogether?
And that's a very simple example, in Zig, that kind of equations doesn't scale well, when it comes to readability