Perhaps, but there’s also just many good alternatives now.
quonn · 10h ago
I'll believe it when I see, say, a someone in a VW (or similar) driving across Europe without having to think about chargers, broken stations and cables, fiddling with different payment system card and having a screen that actually works safely (as opposed to long lags and not showing the required information).
The software is a terrible mess for most brands and the charging infrastructure as well. Tesla's competition still costs about 25-50% more. It will take at least another 5 years or longer for someone to catch up.
mattlondon · 9h ago
FWIW I have a VW ID3. The specs in terms of range etc are largely the same as a similarly priced Mopel 3 standard range. Here is a comparison: https://ev-database.org/uk/side-by-side?i=2210,3186&h=a018a3... they're basically neck-and-neck apart from 0.60 times etc where tesla is slightly faster and better efficiency, but the VW gets slightly better range & bigger battery so it balances out. Both charge at max 175KW
At least in the UK, I've never had a problem with charging stations of payment yet - there are lots of stations (some now are "plug and charge" so you just plug and the payment is dealt with automatically, but those are currently rare but the rest pretty much all take contactless payments) and many now that are 350KW (which is way more than either my ID3 or the Tesla 3 can handle). Pretty much everyone now has settled on CCS as the "usb for cars" in Europe so that are no cable/adaptor issues to worry about.
The software on the ID.3 is ok. If you sit there for 20 minutes and fiddle with it yes it is not as smooth as using a modern smart-phone in terms of responsiveness. But really, 99% of the time all I am doing with it is changing the radio station or aircon for which it is totally fine. I've not used a tesla so cannot do a direct comparison.
quonn · 7h ago
> I have a VW ID3.
I have an ID4 so I can compare both.
> I've not used a tesla so cannot do a direct comparison.
That's all I need to know.
rurp · 2h ago
Well I've driven Tesla's many times as two of my immediate family members own one and I find the software absolutely terrible, it's the worst UX of any vehicle I've ever driven. The move to hide basic functionality, often safety related, in menus and non-standard places is terrible. On top of that they change the interfaces without warning and move things around. I've seen even the vehicle owners get stumped on how to do basic things like adjust the steering wheel position or set the windshield wipers correctly in the rain. Even Tesla's own online documentation was wrong the one time I went there after I was unable to figure out how to make a basic adjustment.
That company really loves form over functionality and mistakes gimmicks for features.
prmoustache · 6h ago
I've seen people doing trip comparisons with Tesla, Peugeot, VW, BMW and chinese EV crossing France between various cities.
All in all experience and complete trip time was more or less equal on all of them except for those who choose to use the cheapest charging network which host all its charging stations outside of highways.
Non-Tesla EV can charge on Tesla charging stations in EU [2] and Tesla charging stations are often located in unfriendly places with no commodities available such as toilets and take away food so very often non-Tesla networks offer a better experience.
All in all on lpng trips the choice of the vehicle doesn't seem to make a major difference past a minimal viable range. It is more about the charging network you choose to stick with and the potential app gymnastic you might be doing if you aren't sticking to one in particular. And the Tesla network doesn't seem to have in Europe the superiority it might have in th USA.
ben_w · 9h ago
> Tesla's competition still costs about 25-50% more.
You sure about that? From what I've seen, each of Tesla's models have a competitor of similar category and range that's order-of €5k cheaper.
Even with that aside, there's also the issue that Tesla doesn't have a broad range of vehicles, and there's now a lot of other competitors filling all the various niches, which means if all you want is a cheap electric city car you can get that for €17k* and don't need to start with the, what is it, €42k for a Model 3?
There is also the much cheaper Citroën Ami for just under €8k, but that's more of a car-shaped object, legally a quadricycle, but even then the point remains that it's filling in niches that Tesla doesn't: https://www.citroen.de/modelle/neuer-ami.html
dzhiurgis · 8h ago
Chinese cars in NZ cost about 5k USD less than Tesla, but you also generally get less car - slightly smaller, slightly worse specs and of course average software.
Weird exemption is Korean cars that cost far more. Go figure that out.
I agree Tesla's narrow range of options is probably THE issue. Like it or not, a lot of people's car buying is irrational. Flash looks, unrealistic range, tons of custom options, old habits (Korean EVs still ship a fricking engine start button). Tesla is the most rational car purchase out there (average looks, tons of features, tons of automation, mass produced so parts a dirt cheap). Most of rational buyers already got one.
rsynnott · 8h ago
> Weird exemption is Korean cars that cost far more. Go figure that out.
This might be an NZ trade policy thing; in Europe, Hyundai has electric cars susbstantially cheaper than the cheapest Tesla.
tossandthrow · 10h ago
I don't think people see the software as an intrinsic feature of getting from a to b - yet.
Charging infrastructure really depends. In the northern country the alternatives are great and even Tesla owners would likely use alternative charging infrastructure - unless they want to take detours to get to Tesla charging points.
quonn · 10h ago
There are very rarely any detours worth mentioning on highways anymore. I can confidently say this, because I regularly take trips across Europe, crossing 5 countries per trip (~3000 kms).
gniv · 10h ago
We're talking about Europe here. The choices are there. Around here (greater Paris) I see a lot of Chinese brands (BYD, MG, Volvo) and domestics too (VW, Renault).
Edit: I meant to reply to u/petesergeant above.
quonn · 10h ago
> The choices are there.
I have test-driven BYD, Volvo, VW and Tesla and extensively driving VW, Tesla and Volvo. Of course you see different brands, but it doesn't mean they are as good right now.
sundaeofshock · 6h ago
My response to your assertion that Tesla is the best EV on the market is “so what”. The other brands may not be ”the best”, but buyers have decided they are good enough for their specific needs and that is all that matters.
jaggs · 7h ago
Yeah, clearly you either don't have an EV or have never driven across Europe in one. I have several times over the past 8 years and there's absolutely no problem with infrastructure or performance. And my car is old. Newer models are ordered of magnitude better in terms of charging speed, functions etc.
kmac_ · 10h ago
European alternatives are expensive, and half of Chinese no-name brands will disappear next decade (good luck servicing such a car). Regarding Chinese brands, they are crash tested by C-NCAP, not Euro NCAP, and somehow every model gets 5 stars. No, thank you.
rsynnott · 8h ago
> European alternatives are expensive
Just looking at a sampling of Irish prices across the low end (including grants):
Tesla Model 3: min 37,500eur
VW id.3 (European): min 31,780eur
Dacia Spring (European/Chinese): 17,000eur
Hyundai Inster (Korean): 20,000eur
Like, certainly in terms of minimum entry price, Telsa's very much on the expensive end.
tossandthrow · 9h ago
What no name brands?
BYD is as old as Tesla (2003) and XPeng is more than 10 years old at this point.
kmac_ · 9h ago
BYD is actually well established. But there are dozens of Chinese car brands right now on the European market, simply, there's too much competition, many of them will leave.
tossandthrow · 9h ago
Do you care to name just a few of those dozens?
Bringing a car on the market is quite regulated, so if you don't have adequate capital, it is really difficult to bring a new car to market in the EU.
kmac_ · 7h ago
Sure, two dozens, sorted by most popular. Half of them will be gone:
The two biggest is BYD and Geely. Pretty much the Toyota/Honda of China.
danaris · 5h ago
To many Americans, Chinese brands don't count as "name brands". They're the knock-off generics that you get if you don't value the status that a "real" name brand gives you.
dzhiurgis · 8h ago
This.
Koreans have far too many issues and Japanese are just making fun of themselves (albeit new Leaf finally might be decent).
GardenLetter27 · 10h ago
The EU needs to end the tariffs on Chinese EVs.
It's funny they say climate change is a critical emergency (with several countries making measures to effectively ban AC), but then stick to stuff like that.
mrtksn · 3h ago
Agree completely, protectionism when your manufacturers still have the resources to compete is just postponing their end and reducing their chances to get a feel on the market and actually build a competitive product.
However, on the climate change thing I'm convinced that for EU its's just a happy coincidence that they don't have oil in any considerable amount and are using it to propel for energy independence through renewables.
pjmlp · 9h ago
Stopping wars and AI everything would do much more for the planet than dealing with paper straws.
Yet here we are, with no end in sight for them, while I have to feel guilty to prefer something that doesn't destroy itself after a few seconds in contact with liquids, or to take the car, because transport network only favours those that already live in the city.
ZeroGravitas · 6h ago
The plastic straw bans were about the structural rigidity and non biodegradable nature of the item causing trouble for animals when discarded.
Similar to the can ring holders that got banned previously for similar reasons.
It's telling that critics of the move needs to invent other reasons for it to fail at.
pjmlp · 1h ago
It is a fun exercise to seat at the beach and see everyone busy splitting caps from bottles.
Sometimes it is better to improve education than draconian measures.
ben_w · 5m ago
I remain fascinated how many people (not just you) describe something as minor as a materials or structure requirement of a minor sub-item of one of several different ways in which drinks are prepackaged into individual potions, with terms such as "draconic".
It's not like people get the death penalty for littering, which would fit the etymology of the term.
Still, language drifts.
GardenLetter27 · 9h ago
Why AI? AI is a big productivity booster, better to just generate more nuclear and renewable power, and then use AI to improve things more (same argument for AC).
Energy usage doesn't have to correspond to environmental damage much at all.
This degrowth mindset is the whole problem with the EU. They focus on scarcity and cutbacks and regulation and bans, rather than addressing the underlying issues to spur on growth and innovation.
rurp · 1h ago
> Energy usage doesn't have to correspond to environmental damage much at all.
Come on now, green energy is less bad than fossil fuels, often by a lot, but that's very different from having no impact. The mining to support solar panels does real measurable harm, as does disposing of old ones. There are similar environmental costs to every green energy source. I think nuclear is one of the least bad options and we should have been making more of it for decades, but it's hardly devoid of externalities.
That's not to say we need to consume less energy, just that we should be clear eyed about the tradeoffs. So far there's very little evidence of a huge productivity boost from generative AI, especially relative to the immense energy consumption. Things are changing quickly, maybe that will improve in the near future. But if utility levels off where it is now and energy consumption increases another one or two orders of magnitude, and we're still keeping coal plants alive to support it, I'm going to be pretty skeptical it's worth the cost.
pjmlp · 9h ago
Because of the water cooling and all forms of producing energy that it entails.
It is like loving the planet eating soja, while ignoring the forests being destroyed to satisfy demand as planting fields.
Or farmable fields now being solar panel fields, because it is more profitable to sell energy, than living the farmer life, earning pennies for a hard work life, while kids die every day of lack of nutrition.
To fix the planet, first we need to get rid of profit driven societies.
froddd · 7h ago
Soya is a bad analogy here. When forests are being destroyed to grow soya, it isn’t primarily soy to feed humans, but to feed cattle/stock to then feed humans. This is an order of magnitude more destructive.
Edit: fully agree with the sentiment, getting rid of the profit-driven mindset would be beneficial to all.
ZeroGravitas · 6h ago
The majority of EV imports from China to EU have been Teslas in recent years!
The percentage has been falling but it was still about a quarter of imported Chinese made EVs being Tesla in 2023. And a chunk more is European brands like Dacia and BMW.
Projected to be majority Chinese brands from this year though.
mattlondon · 10h ago
Regardless of the politics, the new look for the Model Y is awful in my opinion.
They took something that was quite tidily styled and classy (IMHO) looking, and have made it into this weird horizontal slit thing that looks cheap and nasty, and feels at odds with the rest of the car's shape and massing. A real mess of a facelift I think - no one would willing pick that if they cared about what it looks like.
Fade_Dance · 10h ago
I suppose looks are subjective. I think the facelift is appealing, and from what I've seen online the general reaction has been pretty good in comment sections.
Most importantly, it differentiates the model y from the model 3. Before the facelift the y sort of looked like a bloated model 3 with the exact same design language.
Gareth321 · 7h ago
I guess it has been polarising but I have to be honest: I quite like it. Of course it's not Porsche or Audi styling, but I think it's clean and understated and quite functional. Some of the negative sentiment appears to draw parallels with Chinese brands. Perhaps that's true, but I don't dislike BYD styling.
V__ · 10h ago
Elon probably can't accept that his Cybertruck design sucks, so he is slowly forcing the design language onto other models.
quonn · 10h ago
I like the new look of the Y.
I dislike the new look of the Model 3, though, which looked kind of cute and from the front somewhat like a Porsche and now looks sort of aggressive with the thin lights.
dzhiurgis · 8h ago
they look good irl and pretty poor in photos.
regardless - you do realize tesla isn't about the looks, but user convenience? No car comes close it's integration.
dzonga · 9h ago
Tesla has no advantage over BYD and even electric cars from BMW. the iRange from BMW look better than any tesla - feel more premium too.
with BYD - they make cheaper cars, are more experienced in making batteries than tesla. so what advantage does tesla have over their rivals ?
yeah at first 'tech' people bought tesla's as a fashion statement but that period is over.
GardenLetter27 · 9h ago
Tesla is the only one with consumer FSD technology.
But that is banned in Europe atm, so it negates Tesla's main advantage.
f33d5173 · 8h ago
It's a gimmick even in the US and not the reason for their success there either.
Gareth321 · 7h ago
There are a lot of very happy FSD users out there. Even two years ago, surveys showed an almost 2:1 ratio of satisfied to dissatisfied users. (https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2023-tesla-survey/autopil...) I have tried it and it does work remarkably well. It's not perfect, however, and I think some people expect that.
kibibu · 5h ago
> 2:1 ratio of satisfied to dissatisfied users
That's an unusual way to say a full third of customers are dissatisfied with it.
FeloniousHam · 3h ago
As a happy daily FSD user, I know a few happy Tesla owners who don't use FSD. Cost is a major factor, but risk aversion follows hard upon it.
They're all in tech somehow, for most it's skepticism about software quality for a complicated and critical system. For at least one, he thinks he's a better driver and likes driving anyways.
lossolo · 3h ago
> Tesla is the only one with consumer FSD technology.
You're right about FSD, but even Autopilot is 10 years old yet nobody is able to pull it off.
quonn · 10h ago
Elon could turn Tesla's car business around by apologizing, letting go of his extreme compensation claims, keeping shares of only 15% instead of 25% and working pro bono in the future.
Otherwise it is difficult to see how they could still succeed, even if they ever manage to produce a perfect FSD.
He brought this on himself.
rurp · 1h ago
In other words, give up the everything wants out of running Tesla? I don't see that happening.
He has been working extremely hard to extract as much value as possible out of Tesla, at an unprecedented rate. He wants to be paid more than the company has ever made selling cars! Comparable CEOs take small or no salary and make their money by growing the value of their equity. Musk wants to improve the value of his massive existing equity and be paid tens of billions of dollars on top of that, in multiple packages. Before his first payout got held up in court he was already pressuring the company to give him another unprecedented handout.
To state the obvious, nobody becomes the wealthiest person in the world by not caring about money. They might pretend to not care, but acquiring that level of wealth takes a lot of dedicated focus to accomplish.
fhd2 · 10h ago
I think it's not that easy. Musk was _extremely_ present in the media for months and months. Whatever apology or change of heart he could do, he would need to manage to get a similar level of exposure for that. If he's no longer involved in politics (a change of heart probably wouldn't exactly help with that), I don't know if that's even possible. Perhaps if his companies have a number of major breakthroughs or at least new promises.
And that's not even considering how a change of heart would probably hurt his government connections and other funding sources in the near future.
His best chance is possibly to stay on course but tone it down, and generate some (at least perceived) successes with his companies. If he can stay in the game for another couple of years, I'd bet consumers will have mostly forgotten and focus on the products they're getting. I'm not exactly a fan of the CEOs of most companies I'm a customer of. Musk managed to be too much for many, but I don't think that'll stick for very long.
tacker2000 · 10h ago
Not sure if he can salvage it at this point.
Even if he steps away completely, the brand is still damaged and the competition is catching up pretty fast.
thaumasiotes · 1h ago
Hm.
Do any of those have something to do with making better cars?
ndsipa_pomu · 3h ago
If Elon wants to repair his/Tesla's image, then he could use some of his immense wealth to feed/clothe/house the world's poor
siiffii4828 · 10h ago
Or just cash in any shorts/hedges as the company tumbles and buy it back for pennies if it’s worth his trouble in the future. Meanwhile ride a few more hyped statements to pick up some swings to the upside
skeletal88 · 10h ago
No idea why you are downvoted.
He should apologise,stay quiet, not get involved in politics or try to influence elections in Europe by supporting far right or other extreme parties.
xxs · 10h ago
Mostly b/c it's way too late, and it's unlikely an apology to be taken genuinely
quonn · 10h ago
My point was the apology could be taken genuinely if he backs it up by somewhat painful actions (financially and in terms of control). Of course this is very unlikely to happen.
atemerev · 10h ago
Can't turn this around. We remember all he did. The only way to turn it around would be to resign as Tesla CEO.
timbit42 · 6h ago
That wouldn't be enough. He still owns a chunk of the stock.
mcv · 10h ago
I don't think anyone is surprised about this. We don't like fascism over here. At least not the kind of people who buy electric cars.
drstewart · 10h ago
Given Chinese car sales are up, it does seem you do like native ethnic genocides though
quonn · 10h ago
It's not quite the same thing, though. Nobody would really care about the CEO's private opinions, no matter how unpleasant, but funding and running public campaigns for far-right parties (or threatening to do so even in Europe) is very different.
mcv · 9h ago
The BYD CEO (whoever that is) is a lot less in your face about their support for that.
Let's face it, it's easy to ignore this stuff if it happens quietly. Tesla would probably have been fine if Musk had quietly financed Musk. He's being too public and blatant about it. Most consumers don't actually care that much until you rub their faces in it. Which Musk does.
It would absolutely be better if consumers were more aware of the hidden atrocities behind the products they buy. I try to avoid Chinese products, don't buy from Amazon, I've got a Fairphone, am picky about where my chocolate comes from, and avoid Chiquita, Nestle and brands like that. But I'm a tiny minority. We do need more awareness about this sort of thing.
But even with all the awareness that Musk is creating about his own fascism, there are still people buying his cars.
msgodel · 8h ago
So it's ok as long as it's quiet?
GardenLetter27 · 9h ago
Neither Musk nor China are fascist, it's a shame to see this sort of hyperbole take over HackerNews too.
kreetx · 9h ago
Yup. I would assume people in Europe have a good idea on what it looks like from memories passed on from grandparents. I guess the losing chunk of US population can't stop shaming the other party.
f33d5173 · 8h ago
China is facially a fascist state. Fascism isn't a simple pejorative, its a category of political ideologies that can and have been implemented. There's no hyperbole in stating that.
ndsipa_pomu · 3h ago
Musk deliberately and publicly made two Nazi salutes - it's certainly not hyperbole to refer to him as a fascist
The brand is all Tesla had left, once the competition caught up (and in practice they have). And now the brand too is damaged. Musk would have to resign and fully, publicly divest from the company, for it to recover. Or, he could start making hybrids and try to get support from the MAGA crowd. But in the current form, Tesla will die a slow death.
schnitzelstoat · 8h ago
Tesla is the Roomba of electric cars.
Technologically behind the competition and more expensive too, but a strong brand name well known for being one of the first major electric car producers.
Now the brand is toxic BYD etc. will overtake them in Europe too. Ironically, it's Europe's own tariffs against China that have protected them from BYD for this long.
GardenLetter27 · 8h ago
They aren't technologically behind though - Tesla FSD is the best there is for consumers.
But Europe bans FSD, so in Europe, Tesla is just more expensive for no benefit.
rich_sasha · 8h ago
The problem is that they also built their whole story on Musk being the secret sauce and the magic sprinkle. He is the justification behind the PE ratio of (googles) 187x.
Toyota's PE ratio, for a random comparison, is 6.5. It is unfair in many ways, but still, it shows the scale of the valuation gap!
xiphias2 · 8h ago
I don't see any problem with it, but this just means that Elon stepping down would be the worst decision for Tesla, probably halving it's market cap.
I just don't understand the reason, why any Tesla shareholder wouldn't like the 400% return in 5 years, just because BYD had even better return and forced some margin compression on Tesla.
rich_sasha · 7h ago
The problem is, if Musk is the TSLA 30x value multiplier, if he leaves then price crashes 30x. And if you don't like the 30x number, pick your own. By comparison with non-Tesla car makers, the discount would likely be massive. Even 2-3x would be pretty crazy.
ckastner · 9h ago
This is a bit misleading as the decline reported is year-on-year and of course sales haven't fully recovered yet.
Quarter-on-quarter or month-by-month would have been much more interesting, could have shown a change in trend. Especially after Musk's departure from the administration.
baseballdork · 3h ago
> and of course sales haven't fully recovered yet
I'm out of the loop here. Recovered from what? A few months ago in similar threads the going theory was that people were waiting for the new Y, and that's why there was a slump. The new Y is out and available, no? Are they just not up to full rate production?
xiphias2 · 8h ago
The wohole thread is misleading here of course.
At this point it's much more interesting how well the Robotaxi is doing. It's still not driving like Waymo (I didn't like how it is desregarding the rules), but in a few years if it is able to scale up, it will scale much much faster and cheaper.
owebmaster · 6h ago
Yes! In a few years it's going to be huge! Let us all buy the stocks now! /s
brikym · 10h ago
If it's just about politics then I think it's odd that people who think Elon is a Nazi would buy a car from a country which is actually a nationalist socialist dictatorship and effectively controls all the companies. I don't know if buying from one of the South Korean chaebol companies is any better either.
If it's about function or form then I think the new Teslas are getting uglier with light bars and busy styling vs the old clean and minimal look.
detaro · 4h ago
Unsurprisingly, many people care more about their local politics than those far away. Elon has loudly promoted far-right parties and talking points in my home country. (and of course Tesla and all the other brands do business in China anyways, a Tesla bought in Europe might very well come from Shanghai still afaik)
aniviacat · 9h ago
I think people generally aren't very attentive on issues like this, and Musk would have been fine had he stuck to merely saying political stuff.
I think it's the Nazi salute where he really fucked up. Because even people that don't read (aka: most people) will look at an image of a Nazi salute and instantly have a strong opinion.
As long as JinPing doesn't do a Nazi salute, most people won't care much about what the Chinese government is doing.
The lesson of the story: Don't do controversial things in a way that makes a good cover page image.
kibibu · 4h ago
Also the openly supporting AfD didn't sit very well.
It's not like it's in the past either, only a couple of weeks ago he publicly claimed that Trump is a child rapist, but notably seemed to have zero qualms cosying up to him anyway as long as he got to play DOGE saviour.
dismalaf · 9h ago
This was always going to happen. Tesla got first mover advantage but realistically, they never really had a tech advantage. It's easier for existing car companies to electrify than to create a new car company.
Volkswagen group EVs are pretty good, Volvo/Polestar EVs look really good, BYD is like Tesla but with Chinese backing and seem to be pulling ahead in battery tech, Hyundai/Kia produce batteries and control a ton of their supply chain being a conglomerate, etc... Tesla's battery tech is stale, their designs are stale (except the Cybertruck which is hideous), and all this is before considering the US/Elon Musk craziness...
Edit - should add, outside all the more innovative brands, every legacy brand has an EV as well.
atemerev · 10h ago
Well, naturally.
I like my Model 3. It is a fantastic car. Charging infrastructure is bar none. Price is unbeatable. No range anxiety.
But of course, were I choosing a car to buy today, I would have never bought it. That would be akin to doing business with Epstein. Some things are absolutely unforgivable.
The software is a terrible mess for most brands and the charging infrastructure as well. Tesla's competition still costs about 25-50% more. It will take at least another 5 years or longer for someone to catch up.
At least in the UK, I've never had a problem with charging stations of payment yet - there are lots of stations (some now are "plug and charge" so you just plug and the payment is dealt with automatically, but those are currently rare but the rest pretty much all take contactless payments) and many now that are 350KW (which is way more than either my ID3 or the Tesla 3 can handle). Pretty much everyone now has settled on CCS as the "usb for cars" in Europe so that are no cable/adaptor issues to worry about.
The software on the ID.3 is ok. If you sit there for 20 minutes and fiddle with it yes it is not as smooth as using a modern smart-phone in terms of responsiveness. But really, 99% of the time all I am doing with it is changing the radio station or aircon for which it is totally fine. I've not used a tesla so cannot do a direct comparison.
I have an ID4 so I can compare both.
> I've not used a tesla so cannot do a direct comparison.
That's all I need to know.
That company really loves form over functionality and mistakes gimmicks for features.
All in all experience and complete trip time was more or less equal on all of them except for those who choose to use the cheapest charging network which host all its charging stations outside of highways.
Non-Tesla EV can charge on Tesla charging stations in EU [2] and Tesla charging stations are often located in unfriendly places with no commodities available such as toilets and take away food so very often non-Tesla networks offer a better experience.
All in all on lpng trips the choice of the vehicle doesn't seem to make a major difference past a minimal viable range. It is more about the charging network you choose to stick with and the potential app gymnastic you might be doing if you aren't sticking to one in particular. And the Tesla network doesn't seem to have in Europe the superiority it might have in th USA.
You sure about that? From what I've seen, each of Tesla's models have a competitor of similar category and range that's order-of €5k cheaper.
Even with that aside, there's also the issue that Tesla doesn't have a broad range of vehicles, and there's now a lot of other competitors filling all the various niches, which means if all you want is a cheap electric city car you can get that for €17k* and don't need to start with the, what is it, €42k for a Model 3?
* For a Dacia Spring: https://www.dacia.de/nci-catalog.html?model.code=S1E&sortKey...
There is also the much cheaper Citroën Ami for just under €8k, but that's more of a car-shaped object, legally a quadricycle, but even then the point remains that it's filling in niches that Tesla doesn't: https://www.citroen.de/modelle/neuer-ami.html
Weird exemption is Korean cars that cost far more. Go figure that out.
I agree Tesla's narrow range of options is probably THE issue. Like it or not, a lot of people's car buying is irrational. Flash looks, unrealistic range, tons of custom options, old habits (Korean EVs still ship a fricking engine start button). Tesla is the most rational car purchase out there (average looks, tons of features, tons of automation, mass produced so parts a dirt cheap). Most of rational buyers already got one.
This might be an NZ trade policy thing; in Europe, Hyundai has electric cars susbstantially cheaper than the cheapest Tesla.
Charging infrastructure really depends. In the northern country the alternatives are great and even Tesla owners would likely use alternative charging infrastructure - unless they want to take detours to get to Tesla charging points.
Edit: I meant to reply to u/petesergeant above.
I have test-driven BYD, Volvo, VW and Tesla and extensively driving VW, Tesla and Volvo. Of course you see different brands, but it doesn't mean they are as good right now.
Just looking at a sampling of Irish prices across the low end (including grants):
Tesla Model 3: min 37,500eur
VW id.3 (European): min 31,780eur
Dacia Spring (European/Chinese): 17,000eur
Hyundai Inster (Korean): 20,000eur
Like, certainly in terms of minimum entry price, Telsa's very much on the expensive end.
BYD is as old as Tesla (2003) and XPeng is more than 10 years old at this point.
Bringing a car on the market is quite regulated, so if you don't have adequate capital, it is really difficult to bring a new car to market in the EU.
MG, BYD, ORA, Haval, Omoda, Lynk & Co, NIO, Xpeng, Zeekr, Maxus, Leapmotor, Hongqi, Aiways, Chery, Jaecoo, BAIC, Forthing, DFSK, Seres, Voyah, SWM, JAC, Bestune, Skywell
Omoda is Chery for example.
MG and Maxus are both SAIC.
Haval and ORA are Great Wall.
A diagram as of 2024: https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/v2/D4D22AQE4uiRLMqkneQ/fee...
Koreans have far too many issues and Japanese are just making fun of themselves (albeit new Leaf finally might be decent).
It's funny they say climate change is a critical emergency (with several countries making measures to effectively ban AC), but then stick to stuff like that.
However, on the climate change thing I'm convinced that for EU its's just a happy coincidence that they don't have oil in any considerable amount and are using it to propel for energy independence through renewables.
Yet here we are, with no end in sight for them, while I have to feel guilty to prefer something that doesn't destroy itself after a few seconds in contact with liquids, or to take the car, because transport network only favours those that already live in the city.
Similar to the can ring holders that got banned previously for similar reasons.
It's telling that critics of the move needs to invent other reasons for it to fail at.
Sometimes it is better to improve education than draconian measures.
It's not like people get the death penalty for littering, which would fit the etymology of the term.
Still, language drifts.
Energy usage doesn't have to correspond to environmental damage much at all.
This degrowth mindset is the whole problem with the EU. They focus on scarcity and cutbacks and regulation and bans, rather than addressing the underlying issues to spur on growth and innovation.
Come on now, green energy is less bad than fossil fuels, often by a lot, but that's very different from having no impact. The mining to support solar panels does real measurable harm, as does disposing of old ones. There are similar environmental costs to every green energy source. I think nuclear is one of the least bad options and we should have been making more of it for decades, but it's hardly devoid of externalities.
That's not to say we need to consume less energy, just that we should be clear eyed about the tradeoffs. So far there's very little evidence of a huge productivity boost from generative AI, especially relative to the immense energy consumption. Things are changing quickly, maybe that will improve in the near future. But if utility levels off where it is now and energy consumption increases another one or two orders of magnitude, and we're still keeping coal plants alive to support it, I'm going to be pretty skeptical it's worth the cost.
It is like loving the planet eating soja, while ignoring the forests being destroyed to satisfy demand as planting fields.
Or farmable fields now being solar panel fields, because it is more profitable to sell energy, than living the farmer life, earning pennies for a hard work life, while kids die every day of lack of nutrition.
To fix the planet, first we need to get rid of profit driven societies.
Edit: fully agree with the sentiment, getting rid of the profit-driven mindset would be beneficial to all.
The percentage has been falling but it was still about a quarter of imported Chinese made EVs being Tesla in 2023. And a chunk more is European brands like Dacia and BMW.
Projected to be majority Chinese brands from this year though.
They took something that was quite tidily styled and classy (IMHO) looking, and have made it into this weird horizontal slit thing that looks cheap and nasty, and feels at odds with the rest of the car's shape and massing. A real mess of a facelift I think - no one would willing pick that if they cared about what it looks like.
Most importantly, it differentiates the model y from the model 3. Before the facelift the y sort of looked like a bloated model 3 with the exact same design language.
I dislike the new look of the Model 3, though, which looked kind of cute and from the front somewhat like a Porsche and now looks sort of aggressive with the thin lights.
regardless - you do realize tesla isn't about the looks, but user convenience? No car comes close it's integration.
with BYD - they make cheaper cars, are more experienced in making batteries than tesla. so what advantage does tesla have over their rivals ?
yeah at first 'tech' people bought tesla's as a fashion statement but that period is over.
But that is banned in Europe atm, so it negates Tesla's main advantage.
That's an unusual way to say a full third of customers are dissatisfied with it.
They're all in tech somehow, for most it's skepticism about software quality for a complicated and critical system. For at least one, he thinks he's a better driver and likes driving anyways.
That's not true anymore, at least in China.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuDSz06BT2g
Otherwise it is difficult to see how they could still succeed, even if they ever manage to produce a perfect FSD.
He brought this on himself.
He has been working extremely hard to extract as much value as possible out of Tesla, at an unprecedented rate. He wants to be paid more than the company has ever made selling cars! Comparable CEOs take small or no salary and make their money by growing the value of their equity. Musk wants to improve the value of his massive existing equity and be paid tens of billions of dollars on top of that, in multiple packages. Before his first payout got held up in court he was already pressuring the company to give him another unprecedented handout.
To state the obvious, nobody becomes the wealthiest person in the world by not caring about money. They might pretend to not care, but acquiring that level of wealth takes a lot of dedicated focus to accomplish.
And that's not even considering how a change of heart would probably hurt his government connections and other funding sources in the near future.
His best chance is possibly to stay on course but tone it down, and generate some (at least perceived) successes with his companies. If he can stay in the game for another couple of years, I'd bet consumers will have mostly forgotten and focus on the products they're getting. I'm not exactly a fan of the CEOs of most companies I'm a customer of. Musk managed to be too much for many, but I don't think that'll stick for very long.
Even if he steps away completely, the brand is still damaged and the competition is catching up pretty fast.
Do any of those have something to do with making better cars?
He should apologise,stay quiet, not get involved in politics or try to influence elections in Europe by supporting far right or other extreme parties.
Let's face it, it's easy to ignore this stuff if it happens quietly. Tesla would probably have been fine if Musk had quietly financed Musk. He's being too public and blatant about it. Most consumers don't actually care that much until you rub their faces in it. Which Musk does.
It would absolutely be better if consumers were more aware of the hidden atrocities behind the products they buy. I try to avoid Chinese products, don't buy from Amazon, I've got a Fairphone, am picky about where my chocolate comes from, and avoid Chiquita, Nestle and brands like that. But I'm a tiny minority. We do need more awareness about this sort of thing.
But even with all the awareness that Musk is creating about his own fascism, there are still people buying his cars.
Technologically behind the competition and more expensive too, but a strong brand name well known for being one of the first major electric car producers.
Now the brand is toxic BYD etc. will overtake them in Europe too. Ironically, it's Europe's own tariffs against China that have protected them from BYD for this long.
But Europe bans FSD, so in Europe, Tesla is just more expensive for no benefit.
Toyota's PE ratio, for a random comparison, is 6.5. It is unfair in many ways, but still, it shows the scale of the valuation gap!
I just don't understand the reason, why any Tesla shareholder wouldn't like the 400% return in 5 years, just because BYD had even better return and forced some margin compression on Tesla.
Quarter-on-quarter or month-by-month would have been much more interesting, could have shown a change in trend. Especially after Musk's departure from the administration.
I'm out of the loop here. Recovered from what? A few months ago in similar threads the going theory was that people were waiting for the new Y, and that's why there was a slump. The new Y is out and available, no? Are they just not up to full rate production?
At this point it's much more interesting how well the Robotaxi is doing. It's still not driving like Waymo (I didn't like how it is desregarding the rules), but in a few years if it is able to scale up, it will scale much much faster and cheaper.
If it's about function or form then I think the new Teslas are getting uglier with light bars and busy styling vs the old clean and minimal look.
I think it's the Nazi salute where he really fucked up. Because even people that don't read (aka: most people) will look at an image of a Nazi salute and instantly have a strong opinion.
As long as JinPing doesn't do a Nazi salute, most people won't care much about what the Chinese government is doing.
The lesson of the story: Don't do controversial things in a way that makes a good cover page image.
It's not like it's in the past either, only a couple of weeks ago he publicly claimed that Trump is a child rapist, but notably seemed to have zero qualms cosying up to him anyway as long as he got to play DOGE saviour.
Volkswagen group EVs are pretty good, Volvo/Polestar EVs look really good, BYD is like Tesla but with Chinese backing and seem to be pulling ahead in battery tech, Hyundai/Kia produce batteries and control a ton of their supply chain being a conglomerate, etc... Tesla's battery tech is stale, their designs are stale (except the Cybertruck which is hideous), and all this is before considering the US/Elon Musk craziness...
Edit - should add, outside all the more innovative brands, every legacy brand has an EV as well.
I like my Model 3. It is a fantastic car. Charging infrastructure is bar none. Price is unbeatable. No range anxiety.
But of course, were I choosing a car to buy today, I would have never bought it. That would be akin to doing business with Epstein. Some things are absolutely unforgivable.