A factor the author didn't really touch is housing. By 1973 many places in CA at least were starting to ban dingbat construction via ordinance against back out parking setups. We also see many cities in CA and elsewhere downzoned around that time. LA went from being zoned for over 10 million people in 1960 to being zoned for just 4.2 million and being built to almost 95% of its zoned capacity by the 2010s.
I'm not sure exactly the relationship between wage growth and restriction of housing growth but the fact that these phenomenon seemed to happen in lockstep merits some reflection. Prop 13 also came in 1973.
ty6853 · 9h ago
The most hilarious thing about housing in california is they had a chance to use ADUs to lower housing prices but of course they totally rigged the game by outlawing splitting off ADUs as a seperate property, meaning all they did was making housing even more expensive because the value of a plot now includes the additional value of the potential to be a landlord but no way to split that value into an economical individual home.
They managed to find the one fucking way to make additional housing make being a new homeowner even more expensive, and I believe it was not by accident.
onlyrealcuzzo · 9h ago
It is intended that all of the policies make land more expensive...
No politician wants more affordable housing in a place where >65% of voters are property owners...
Ericson2314 · 9h ago
It's good for land to become more valuable. We want land prices to go up, and housing prices to go down. All that means is density is increasing faster than land values.
Nothing against allowing lot splits, but this is the wrong reason to be for it. The reasoning in the previous to replies reaks of "homeownership is more virtuous than renting" which is not true. And besides, if you really want more homeownership, the most important path forward is condos, and thus condo defect liability reform.
ty6853 · 9h ago
On its own higher housing density should lower land prices. All else equal land prices are both cause and effect of housing access.
In the philosophical extreme, if zoning allowed infinite density you could stick a hong-kong style condo skyscraper for the entire population on 0.1 acres and the rest of the land would provide no additional housing utility pushing prices down to whatever the value it is as farmland/business/recreation. The housing value of surrounding land would plumet.
Low land prices are indicative of less restrictive zoning. In more restrictive zoning that punishes building houses on small plots, land becomes more valuable because the land is the license to build a house. i.e. where I live I had to buy more land than I needed because without it I could not build my house, which drives up land prices (increased demand).
The reason why california ADU increase parcel prices is because it prints an additional house license while being illegal to split it off. Otherwise you would be left with two cheaper parcels, although in sum they may be more expensive, but you would still pay less for enough land for license to print a house.
Ericson2314 · 9h ago
> On its own higher housing density should lower land prices. All else equal land prices are both cause and effect of housing access.
>
> In the philosophical extreme, if zoning allowed infinite density you could stick a hong-kong style condo skyscraper for the entire population on 0.1 acres and the rest of the land would provide no additional housing utility pushing prices down to whatever the value it is as farmland/business/recreation. The housing value of surrounding land would plumet.
No I mean the land value of where the density is / right next to it. In your example, the land with the crazy tower / right next to it would be incredibly valuable.
If other areas use land value, that's because the land value is being concentrated in/around the dense areas.
When we talk about upzoning, we want to not only do less sprawl, but also increase overall population (growth will attract population). The exurbs will loose land value, but the cities will gain immense land value, and the suburbs will gain some land value too.
ty6853 · 8h ago
At the time of creating the condo the 0.1 acres would be substantial cheaper. If I have thousands or millions of acres to choose from and I can pick whatever 0.1 acres I want my demand for housing is 0.1 acres and the supply is still all the available land. Pushed to the mathematical limit the housing value of the land approaches zero for the land you buy for your hong kong condo, since demand is now near zero and supply far outstrips it. That is, the cost of the 0.1 acres to the developer is about the same as all the worthless for housing land surrounding it.
Since a large portion housing is currently locked up in 30 year mortgages in a once in a lifetime COVID era near 0% loan that people will not give up for less than a king's ransom, we should be especially sensitive of price of land for new construction, and that will continue to be a dominant factor in rental costs and home prices.
Ericson2314 · 1h ago
You talking about the average price of all land. I'm talking about the price of built-up land. We're not talking about the same thing.
Land in Hong-Kong and Manhattan is more expensive. And arbitrarily tall tour makes its tiny neighborhood of land arbitrary valuable.
Your also assuming housing demand is exogenous to land use — e.g. that everyone that would live in SF but can't afford it lives in Tracy. That's not true. If you make SF contain 3.5 million people, at Manhattan density, you better believe we'll not suck all the people out of Palo Alto or Oakland, but also increase demand in those areas. Fremont would have more demand but less so, Pleasanton in not sure, and the central valley exurbs less demand.
gruez · 5h ago
>They managed to find the one fucking way to make additional housing make being a new homeowner even more expensive, and I believe it was not by accident.
Who cares about "being a new homeowner" (ie. housing as an investment)? I think the far more important thing to care about is housing as a service, ie. being able to find an affordable place to live. Housing is not a great investment. It lags behind equities, isn't diversified, and is an unproductive asset. As such, I'm not going to care too much that people can't get in on the action.
trod1234 · 3h ago
> Who cares about ....
Secure shelter is a necessary pre-requisite to having and raising children. The low birth-rate is a direct result of disadvantaged capital formation, selection interference, and the chaotic and growingly insecure future economically.
Housing is a great and tax favored investment if you know what you are doing.
Cash flow is king. That said, rent-seeking behavior is non-productive, and vile in a lot of ways, and equally regulation to address issues is so poorly written that it ends up destroying the market wholesale.
If you take a look at the demographics and trends, we may actually end up having a housing surplus within a decade.
gruez · 3h ago
>Secure shelter is a necessary pre-requisite to having and raising children. The low birth-rate is a direct result of disadvantaged capital formation, selection interference, and the chaotic and growingly insecure future economically.
Housing in Singapore is famously affordable, but it has the lowest birth rates. Same goes for Japan, or other European countries where house prices haven't skyrocketed but birthrates are still plummeting. There's just no good data backing your claim.
>Housing is a great and tax favored investment if you know what you are doing. Cash flow is king.
Explain. How does a house have better tax treatment and cash flow than buying a vanguard ETF? You might get to deduct your mortgage interest, but you can also deduct margin interest in a brokerage account. I can't see how signing up for a 30year commitment, 20% down payment, and 6% realtor fees is good for cash flow.
bryanlarsen · 10h ago
Housing prices did not outpace inflation in 1973 - 1993. The periods of significant house price inflation (early 2000's, last 15 years) seem to correlate better with periods of wage increase rather than the periods of wage stagnation.
yonran · 10h ago
Proposition 13 was 1978 (99 years after the publication of Progress and Poverty).
asdff · 10h ago
Thanks for the correction
trod1234 · 3h ago
The author is fighting an uphill battle given that this subject has been covered many times in the past, each with their own interpretation, more often than not in contradictory opinion. I stopped reading after it became clear that they are just following the same carved path that's been covered before, with all the same mistakes, not original thought.
Monetary debasement (money-printing) explains the issues. The chaos is explained by Mises with regards to centralized systems as early as the 1930s.
There's really no point in discussion when the majority is noise.
millipede · 10h ago
There's a great graph showing the wages stagnating compared to GDP growth. It looks like wage's haven't gone up. But, when adding back in employer provided health coverage and other benefits, the graphs align again. It just wasn't in dollars. TFA briefly mentions it but I think it should be front and center.
Buttons840 · 9h ago
What you've described is worse than flat wages.
The business-owner class benefits from the health system, because the business-owners are the gatekeepers of healthcare (typically, people get healthcare only through their employer). The worker class is less likely to benefit from the free part of the "free market" because their healthcare is tied to their employer; it's just harder to do anything except work a typical 9-to-5 for the benefit of a business-owner.
The healthcare industry also benefits because they get to suck up a large portion of the GDP; trillions of dollars.
So wages aren't only flat, but the wage growth that should have happened instead went into a corrupt system. Wages aren't honestly flat because of natural market forces, they are corruptly flat.
mbrumlow · 9h ago
> The business-owner class benefits from the health system,
That is a new argument, coming from health care is a right and good for society?
It’s kinda crazy you want to dismiss this simply because it benefits some group of people you don’t like.
In any se your argument is this is worse. And I argue this is good, fair and meritocratic , and sustainable.
While the USA has wealth, you can simply expand your idea beyond the walked garden of a single country and to the world stage. There is no way with today’s tech and cost of labor could we ever give free health care to everybody. World wide there are far more people who exist, than people who exist and contribute back to society.
The dream of unlimited free healthcare can only be archived once > 90% of humans are producing more than they consume, which war are no where near even in the richest of rich, the USA.
jeezfrk · 8h ago
That seems utterly disingenuous as nearly every single other advanced economy IN THE WORLD has near free health care.
normalaccess · 5h ago
They have it because they don't spend on defense like the USA does.
The US taxpayer is the world's golden goose and by means of things like NATO are subsidizing the European socialist healthcare systems.
If the USA cut it's funding in these lines Europe would be back to square one in a very shot time.
Lalo-ATX · 4h ago
> They have it because they don't spend on defense like the USA does.
That doesn't feel right to me.
In the most recent year with data, as a percentage of gdp:
party healthcare military
eu 10.95% 1.56%
usa 17.36% 3.45%
stark difference, but "the only reason eu has socialized healthcare is because of their low military spending" just doesn't reconcile in my mind to the above numbers
The US pays more per person for healthcare than any other nation. This would be true if we doubled defense spending, or if we cut defense spending to zero.
ryandrake · 4h ago
This just seems like the USA's poor spending choices. We could easily have a similar healthcare system as the rest of the developed world, if we chose not to buy all those bombers and aircraft carriers.
solumunus · 24m ago
Pure cope.
archagon · 8h ago
How am I supposed to start a small business if I’m dependent on my big corpo job for healthcare?
Without a robust social safety net, only the rich and well-connected can afford to take economic risks. Eventually, this just results in a flat-out oligarchy.
username135 · 8h ago
you marry someone rich enough to allow you that freedom
/s
temp0826 · 9h ago
Without digging in to details that's an interesting thought. If modern american healthcare costs were to (magically) get under control, would wages become reasonable (per other living expenses) again?
gruez · 5h ago
Obvious point of comparison would be against other countries, that don't have a broken healthcare system.
GDP is a really poor measure of activity. It can be concentrated in a single entity, and retain the same values. It also doesn't account properly for money-printing.
SilasX · 9h ago
That feels like sleight-of-hand though.
Previously (example numbers): Median compensation is $55k + health insurance.
After: Median compensation is $55k + health insurance.
"So nothing changed?"
"Wrong! Health insurance costs more for the same benefits, so really, you got a raise!"
Yeah, sorry if I'm not celebrating.
JackYoustra · 9h ago
The point is that there's enormously different implications. If comp stagnates less than productivity then you have a huge bargaining problem.
If comp keeps pace with productivity but is all eaten up by healthcare costs, either something caused people to willingly spend much more of their money on healthcare costs than they'd do earlier (aging maybe? obesity maybe?) or something is going crazy with healthcare expenses.
I've heard persuasive evidence that if you control for obesity the costs look ok actually.
apercu · 9h ago
> "Wrong! Health insurance costs more for the same benefits, so really, you got a raise!"
It's even worse than that, health insurance costs more for less benefits.
notepad0x90 · 9h ago
I know this is being overly reductive, but I think it sort of boils down to not enough minimum wage workers that vote and everyone else either not caring about low-wage workers, being held hostage by "right to work" (means you can get fired any time for any reason) laws, or relying on job hopping for wage increase.
I have seen companies turn down good candidates for jobs too many times, as a result of speculating that the candidate is too good (they'll expect to get paid more). You don't even have to ask for high wages, you have to dumb down your resume and underplay yourself at some point if you want to be considered for a majority of non-junior roles these days, just so you get a shot at an actual interview and low-ball offer.
gruez · 5h ago
>I know this is being overly reductive, but I think it sort of boils down to not enough minimum wage workers that vote and everyone else either not caring about low-wage workers, being held hostage by "right to work" (means you can get fired any time for any reason) laws, or relying on job hopping for wage increase.
Are you talking about low wage workers, or minimum wage workers? The minimum wage is so low that only 1-2% of workers earn minimum wage.
dfxm12 · 8h ago
not enough minimum wage workers that vote
There's a reason it's very hard to vote in some places, election day isn't a national holiday, etc.
mistrial9 · 9h ago
D-E-M-C-R-A.... oh forget it..
jollyllama · 9h ago
Well sure, finance rose uninterrupted since the end of WW2, but the 70s was when the real asset stripping began.
> And theoretically speaking, women’s mass entry into the workforce shouldn’t produce an overall decline in wages. Just like immigration or a baby boom, women’s entry into the workforce is both a positive labor supply shock and also a positive labor demand shock at the same time — when women earn more, they spend most of what they earn, on things that require labor to produce.1 So we shouldn’t expect the addition of women to the workforce to hold down wages.
The reason that excess labor doesn't drive down wages is because they spend those wages on rolls dice labor intensive things? This makes no sense in any direction.
I'm reading through the beginning, which was a little sus, then jumped to the end and loathe to read most of this handwaving.
I think the reason, if you had to pin it down to one instead of "confluence of factors", could be almost entirely demographics:
* The Boomers, an extremely large generation, enter the workforce in number in the 70's...
* Simultaneously, the older generations with more of the industrial and trades know-how that powered the mid-century economy are now retiring.
* The new focus of the economy in the 70's involved a restructuring around imported-goods, services, high tech, with corresponding winners and losers.
* Part of this restructuring also involved a revamped military to roll out the new "smart weapons" and run a professionalized military instead of the conscription troops that fought in Vietnam.
When you add those trends together, it will look like a stagnant graph: investing in high-tech doesn't come with immediate payoffs, and the new cohort is larger so they have to compete more intensively for top positions while not having the job experiences of the previous. DoD spending has an outsized influence on the balance sheet, and 1994 marks the start of the Internet boom, which reflects the tech sector's move away from defense contracts(the end of the Cold War came with major layoffs in defense) and towards VC moonshots, right around the same time that Gen X is entering - a much smaller generation. The Boomers are at that point entering more senior career roles; both cohorts are productive in the sense of facilitating deskilling, offshoring and cost-cutting, which make the balance sheets of the 90's look great, and reflective in many cases of genuine efficiencies that were now coming to fruition.
burnt-resistor · 6h ago
No mention of Robert Reich's work or the politizane infographics chart. [0] Sigh
The article says, there are a few theories, but none of them really satisfies.
You're right to suggest it's really multiple reasons that need to be considered to get the full picture. They're interconnected. Gov policies weaken unions. Weak unions allow corporation to take advantage of workers, at the behest of wall street. Money gets concentrated, gov policies get bought. The cycle goes on. In this way, we can say the effect is systemic, and fixing the issue will take undoing most, if not all, of the causes.
mcphage · 8h ago
The article pushes against that kind of solution:
> But we should always be suspicious of complex, multi-factorial explanations for trend breaks on a chart. That wage stagnation started and ended suddenly enough that it cries out for a simple story. We just don’t have one yet.
Although I don't really understand that at all. It seems like simple singular solutions should be the ones we're suspicious of.
stevenwoo · 9h ago
I would only dissent in that it was prior to 1981, Lewis Powell laid the outline for the corporate world's reaction to consumers asserting nascent rights ala Nader https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_F._Powell_Jr.#Powell_Mem... and would later serve on the Supreme Court with a big influence for decades.
JackYoustra · 8h ago
if that's so, then why does comp track productivity?
burnt-resistor · 2h ago
Neoliberalism and the red scare. Anything relating to social safety net is "communism", except Social Security. No universal healthcare. Makes perfect, consistent sense.
libraryatnight · 10h ago
So in a reductionist view: greed.
aidenn0 · 9h ago
Are you suggesting greed was absent in the US prior to 1973?
sorcerer-mar · 7h ago
It was absolutely put on overdrive in 1970.
The dominant business philosophy from the late 40s to the 70s was stakeholder capitalism, then this asshat came along and said quite specifically: greed is not just a force we'll co-opt for pro-social purposes, it is not a mitigable downside of economic growth, it is actually the entire purpose of any commercial enterprise.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine
It is shamefully antisocial and un-American. Today it's so baked-in that many young entrepreneurs don't even realize it's a goofy ass meme that only a moron could expect to yield good outcomes.
gruez · 5h ago
From your link:
>Friedman argued that the shareholders can then decide for themselves what social initiatives to take part in rather than have an executive whom the shareholders appointed explicitly for business purposes decide such matters for them
That seems... fine? Is letting Ford shareholders decide what political causes to fund really that much worse than delegating that to Henry Ford, which subsequently decided to support nazi-adjacent groups?
sorcerer-mar · 4h ago
The best way to understand this change is to understand it in relation to what it was changing.
Prior to this, corporations explicitly sought to generate value for shareholders, employees, managers, customers, and their communities. Since shareholders were always one of the stakeholders, the only delta – Milton's breakthrough – was to assert that a corporation need not even consider the other stakeholders. So yes, going from "corporations should aim to be a positive force on everyone they affect" to "corporations need only aim to generate returns for their owners" is a significant downgrade.
With regard to your specific set-up, even there yes it's actually worse. It's better that the shareholders (who ultimately control the company's allocation of capital) feel an obligation to benefit all stakeholders than just giving as much money to themselves and Henry personally so they can all pursue their own pet projects which would themselves be operated under the same self-enriching philosophy.
Just to clarify since people can be confused by the excerpt you've pulled: the prior state of affairs wasn't that shareholders named someone to allocate corporations' money into various political projects. It was that shareholders (and society writ large) expected executives to be a positive impact on all relevant stakeholders. Dumping toxic material into the river is bad even if it improves margins, not because it's illegal, but because it's damaging to the other stakeholders you are supposed to benefit. Milton came along and said no actually that's fine. Don't do illegal things to the extent it harms shareholder returns, but in general you need to do whatever it takes to generate shareholder returns.
gruez · 4h ago
>the prior state of affairs wasn't that shareholders named someone to allocate corporations' money into various political projects. It was that shareholders (and society writ large) expected executives to be a positive impact on all relevant stakeholders. Dumping toxic material into the river is bad even if it improves margins, not because it's illegal, but because it's damaging to the other stakeholders you are supposed to benefit.
This seems like you're viewing the past with rose tinted glasses. The whole point of the passage of the clean air act (1963) and the EPA was that companies were dumping toxic materials into rivers, even under "stakeholder capitalism" (your article says that the Friendman doctrine was introduced in 1970). Same goes with all the other example of corporate malfeasance, such as The Jungle (published 1906), or Unsafe at Any Speed (1965).
sorcerer-mar · 4h ago
Nope, I'm saying that all things being equal, you would expect a philosophical shift from stakeholder capitalism to shareholder supremacy to yield wage suppression, runaway wealth inequality, and hijacking or destruction of government by private interests.
Prior to stakeholder capitalism, industrialization was downright inhumane. After stakeholder capitalism, it's trending toward social and political instability.
During stakeholder capitalism: considered the glory days of American civilization (despite its serious flaws, which we need not ignore).
Could be a coincidence! But I actually think people's beliefs shape their actions, and "my god-given duty is to generate shareholder returns, all else be damned" looks like a prime candidate for all sorts of post-1970 corporate misbehavior.
(The Jungle predates stakeholder capitalism. The Jungle, Silent Spring and Unsafe At Any Speed were forces within that philosophical movement)
gruez · 4h ago
>Prior to stakeholder capitalism, industrialization was downright inhumane.
When did stakeholder capitalism magically pop up and made industrialization not "downright inhumane"? The end of stakeholder capitalism can be traced to Milton Friendman's works, what evidence is there of stakeholder emerging after the "downright inhumane" period before?
> After stakeholder capitalism, it's trending toward social and political instability.
>During stakeholder capitalism: considered the glory days of the American society.
Again, rose tinted glasses: the same period had Cuban Missile crisis, Vietnam war drafts, and the Kent State shootings. Granted, most of them probably didn't have anything to do with stakeholder capitalism, but it's laughable to call it "the glory days of the American society". Moreover have things really fared better in places with "stakeholder capitalism"? For all the talk of "common prosperity", China isn't doing too hot either, with its cratered housing market, high youth unemployment, and low consumer confidence.
csa · 3h ago
> When did stakeholder capitalism magically pop up and made industrialization not "downright inhumane"?
When socialism and communism were perceived as legitimate ideological threats/alternatives to democracy and capitalism.
While we know now that communism as an ideology (at least as it was practiced in the mid-20th century at the nation-state level) is not long-term viable, this was not considered a certainty at that time.
So many of the updated social contracts (both explicit and implicit) that were put into place in the mid-20th century were done in an attempt to avoid/prevent a worker revolution.
Imho, another wave of mass discontent is brewing — the elites in the US are very much out of touch with or ambivalent to the needs of the rest of the country.
gruez · 3h ago
>So many of the updated social contracts (both explicit and implicit) that were put into place in the mid-20th century were done in an attempt to avoid/prevent a worker revolution.
Can you cite specific polices or reforms? What makes you think they "were done in an attempt to avoid/prevent a worker revolution", as opposed to normal reform? What does it say that landmark legislation was passed at the tail end of that period, such as the clean air act? If stakeholder capitalism's "social contracts" were really keeping things together, why was legislation needed?
csa · 2h ago
I’m going to agree with the other responder that you can look this up yourself. I will give some highlights, but none of this is particularly controversial.
> Can you cite specific polices or reforms?
New Deal writ large, specifically social security, development and empowerment of labor unions (Wagner Act), public works projects (WPA and CCC). Also the GI Bill. These are some major examples.
> What makes you think they "were done in an attempt to avoid/prevent a worker revolution", as opposed to normal reform?
Because I’ve read history, including original sources. There was quite a bit of serious rhetoric around the potential for socialism in the US.
> What does it say that landmark legislation was passed at the tail end of that period, such as the clean air act?
I don’t really understand your question, and I have no idea where you’re going with this. I’m almost certain that any question you have on this matter has been answered online in vivid detail.
> If stakeholder capitalism's "social contracts" were really keeping things together, why was legislation needed?
Legislation was the “explicit” part that I mentioned. Better wording probably would have been “laws, policies, and social contracts”, but I’m just writing informal replies on the internet.
The 20th century was a heady time. I’m not sure how old you are or how much history you’ve studied, but there is a lot of really good content out there. I encourage you to engage with it.
gruez · 2h ago
>New Deal writ large, specifically social security, development and empowerment of labor unions (Wagner Act), public works projects (WPA and CCC). Also the GI Bill. These are some major examples.
>Legislation was the “explicit” part that I mentioned. Better wording probably would have been “laws, policies, and social contracts”, but I’m just writing informal replies on the internet.
How are any of those examples of "stakeholder capitalism"? I can see they were pro worker and "an attempt to avoid/prevent a worker revolution", but that's not the same as companies caring about all stakeholders because they had some sense of responsibility. Recall the contention is that after Milton Friedman published his paper in 1970, companies suddenly started becoming greedy and started oppressing consumers/workers or whatever, whereas before it was "stakeholder capitalism" and they weren't doing that.
sorcerer-mar · 3h ago
> what evidence is there of stakeholder emerging after the "downright inhumane" period before?
Sorry are you asking me to prove that stakeholder capitalism existed from the ~1940s to the ~1970s? I'm not going to give a 200 level Business History course in a Hacker News comment thread. You can use Google.
> Again, rose tinted glasses...
I don't know what point you think you're arguing against, but it ain't one of mine!
China doesn't have stakeholder capitalism.
gruez · 3h ago
>Sorry are you asking me to prove that stakeholder capitalism existed from the ~1940s to the ~1970s? I'm not going to give a 200 level Business History course in a Hacker News comment thread. You can use Google.
Given that the wikipedia article says that a 1984 book was "widely cited in the field as being the foundation of stakeholder theory", that the first mention was in 1912, and there's nothing about the post-war period or communism, I'm very skeptical that your "~1940s to the ~1970s" window for stakeholder capitalism was defined in a rigorous way. It seems far more likely you're committing the texas sharpshooter's fallacy by finding a period of american prosperity (ie. "~1940s to the ~1970s"), defining that to be "stakeholder capitalism", and concluding that it was a great success.
You're not really refuting the point. "Common prosperity" sounds a lot like stakeholder capitalism, specifically improving the lives of other citizens/the country as a whole, rather than the company.
AndyNemmity · 9h ago
"The timing of America’s wage stagnation — roughly, 1973 through 1994 — just didn’t line up well with the era of globalization that began with NAFTA in"
The argument isn't that any of this began with NAFTA. The argument as I've always understood it was that it began as the Neoliberal project which started in the late 60s, and early 70s.
The 1973-1994 period wasn't before globalization. It was the period where the groundwork was laid to make labor vulnerable to the type of globalization that neoliberals wanted.
The threat of capital flight for example was already being used to attack workers.
The breakdown of the Bretton Woods system was the start which aligns perfectly with the time period.
Noam Chomsky on the topic
"Bretton Woods restrictions on finance were dismantled, finance was freed, speculation boomed, huge amounts of capital started going into speculation against currencies and other paper manipulations, and the entire economy became financialized.
The power of the economy shifted to the financial institutions, away from manufacturing. And since then, the majority of the population has had a very tough time; in fact it may be a unique period in American history. There’s no other period where real wages — wages adjusted for inflation — have more or less stagnated for so long for a majority of the population and where living standards have stagnated or declined." - https://chomsky.info/20090210/
So we start off with an flawed view of the world, and then we move forward with the argument to explain it through other means.
The 1973-1994 wage stagnation isn't a "mystery" caused by a patchwork of unrelated events. It's a direct consequence of a fundamental, politically driven shift in the economic regime, specifically the dismantling of the Bretton Woods system in the early 1970s and the subsequent financialization of the economy and deregulation.
readthenotes1 · 10h ago
Weird that the author doesn't talk about the expansion of the labor force with more women coming in in the 1970s, nor also the baby boom expansion that happened at the same time.
More workers vying for the same jobs--supply and demand driving down labor costs?
nativeit · 9h ago
I’m not arguing for/against the points being made, but:
> Update: Some people have been asking me if the wage stagnation of 1973-1994 might have been caused by the mass entry of women into the U.S. workforce. Here’s the employment rate (also called the “employment-population ratio”) for American women:
[see article for graph]
You can see that the first part of the timing doesn’t line up here. When the wage stagnation began, American women had already been entering the workforce at a steady clip for 25 years. (The labor force participation rate for women looks much the same). Also, empirical evidence suggests at most a small effect of female labor supply on male wages — and if you look at the breakdown for men and women, you see that the stagnation for men was worse than for women over 1973-1994.
And theoretically speaking, women’s mass entry into the workforce shouldn’t produce an overall decline in wages. Just like immigration or a baby boom, women’s entry into the workforce is both a positive labor supply shock and also a positive labor demand shock at the same time — when women earn more, they spend most of what they earn, on things that require labor to produce.1 So we shouldn’t expect the addition of women to the workforce to hold down wages.
Thus, this theory also doesn’t line up with the timing of the stagnation, and it’s not clear why we would expect it to be a major factor in the first place.
EOF
xienze · 9h ago
> when women earn more, they spend most of what they earn, on things that require labor to produce.
Uh, what happens if the labor to produce things costs pennies because it's all been shipped out to China?
xienze · 9h ago
... Or illegal immigrants undercutting American workers in construction and low-skill industries, or H1B workers undercutting American tech workers, or...
timewizard · 10h ago
Monopolies.
Why would that be hard to understand? When companies don't need to compete for your labor they won't.
Also it's not just wages. The entire market is stagnant. Innovation has ground to a halt and billions are poured into wasteful deadend technologies.
JumpCrisscross · 10h ago
> Monopolies. Why would that be hard to understand?
Valid hypothesis. Needs to be substantiated, as the author has done, and explain the stagnation and real wage increases.
timewizard · 9h ago
> Needs to be substantiated
It is. I'm just not willing to do that here as I'm not writing an article just making a comment.
> as the author has done
Myself and the author have completely different aims with the use of our time.
> and explain the stagnation and real wage increases
Doesn't the article point out that most of these increases have only gone to the already wealthy? It seems that even with an explanation failing to contextualize it reduces the value of the explanation to zero. The author, while substantial, has missed this point staring them right in the face.
buckle8017 · 10h ago
The author states that globalization began in 1994 with NAFTA.
That seems either extremely naive or intentionally deceptive.
Globalization began in 1972 with the opening of China.
Which of course perfectly lines up with the stagnation of American wages.
That doesn't make much sense. Even allowing a few years for adjustment, the US only imported 158.3M from China in 1975. That's 0.007% of US GDP. (Not 0.7%, 0.007%.)
The US didn't have persistent trade deficits until 1982, and even that reversed by 1992. It was 1997-2006 that the trade deficit as a share of GDP exploded.
aaronbaugher · 9h ago
Right. When Ross Perot predicted the "giant sucking sound" in 1992, he was talking about NAFTA, which hadn't gone into effect yet. And that was small potatoes compared to the deficit with China that would come.
bryanlarsen · 10h ago
Globalization is generally considered to have begun in the 1700's, and was given a name and identified as a big deal in the 1920's.
Trade with China was insignificant before 2005; more often than not the US had a surplus with China. We sold them a lot of wheat.
bruce511 · 10h ago
Maybe your thought there exposes the root of the problem. You are measuring the trade in $ terms. But maybe that's not the right unit when measuring jobs.
Imagine country A makes a product (like say wheat) where the number of jobs needed to make that value is low; while country B makes a product like say, apples, which takes a lot of jobs to produce.
So country A sells say a $1mil load of wheat (10 jobs) and buys $2mil of apples (1000 jobs.)
If we're just measuring trade, the A buys more from B. If we're measuring jobs then B "buys" more than A.
So, maybe, instead of just measuring the value of yhe trade, we need to consider the labor cost of the trade?
I'm really starting to think that maybe national economics and it's relationship to global trade is, you know, complex, and not somehow magically "fixed" with simple stupid tarrif formulas....
abakker · 9h ago
you are describing a very useful economic term - comparative advantage. In the case above, we have a comparative advantage in wheat production. Obviously the full picture is something that economists DO think about, but since our government didn't really do any useful analysis in the formulation of our tariff structure, its unsurprising that they didn't really get it right.
Something to consider in your thought process - take two relatively recent stimulus efforts - 2008 and 2020 - the first was primarily quantitative easing - a classic trickle down effort since all the money went to bank balance sheets and trickled down to individuals, the QE stimulus had almost no impact on inflation. Vs Covid which was direct household stimulus and immediately led to inflationary pressure.
A link I don't see mentioned often is most central banks didn't start an inflation targeting policy until the 90s. Prior to that it was still an objective but managed much worse. https://www.richmondfed.org/publications/research/econ_focus.... this link contains a chart that looks at the inflation volatility over time.
I happen to think that a consequence of managed inflation, balanced against aggregate employment is consistent wage pressure. In essence, wage growth in my mental model on this is a consequence where upward inflation swings drive wage gains, while downward ones drive more unemployment. If inflation is managed closely to avoid volatility, then redistributive effects of volatility are limited.
bryanlarsen · 9h ago
$2mil of apples or 1000 jobs is insignificant compared to the $30T US economy or its 170 million jobs. Similarly, China trade was insignificant to the US economy prior to ~2005, no matter whether you measure it in dollars or jobs.
fuzzfactor · 6h ago
>Globalization is generally considered to have begun in the 1700's
Yup, because you can't have very extensive globalization without bigger ships than you had beforehand, and more of them.
And historically the ships have always needed to be welcome in ports around the globe more so than not.
When you think about it, the USA was founded by multi-national corporations for the benefit of multi-national corporations. They were the ones who could best afford to send ships this way consistently enough.
>maybe that's not the right unit when measuring jobs.
Yeah I think you still need to first measure cargo by the tonne. And then some. The jobs required are already completed by the time the vessel is loaded. What you really have is different cargoes in different amounts at different values in different currencies in disparate locations. The value earned by the manufacturer and trader may represent the work of a wildly different number of jobs or "equivalent" "man"-"hours" exchanged between global operators, even when the balance of trade is considered neutral by one party or another. Then further in some type of job-number terms, different numbers of jobs have different impact on different locations and at different times, even if the currency involved is agreeable to all parties over the long term. So there are a number of moving-target variables other than just dollars or any one currency, and beyond jobs or even absolute tonnage. One thing's sure, any one currency alone is not a very realistic measure of trade balance by long shot.
And different amounts of tonnage may benefit some locations more than others, while also not capable of being well-correlated with any currency value assigned, therefore difficult to account for using financial balance. You do have to also consider that all kinds of trades are made where at least one party is not actually getting their money's worth, sometimes all parties, and trades are still made willingly because they will all still make money in the end anyway, just maybe not as much as they had originally hoped for. Then how do you compare ship after ship of things that may be cheap and fly off the shelf in one currency but still not be worth the money and/or any hidden exchange deficit by far? Against return vessels of a full-value commodity at fair market prices, where everyone gets their money's worth almost every voyage? Time after time different things are bound to add up in different ways.
Now by 1973 the opportunities for prosperity were receding noticeably faster than the previous couple years and it looked like the dollar would be down to half its purchasing power like nobody ever dreamed and there was nothing that could be done about it. There did turn out to be no avoiding that milestone which was reached by about 1976, because basically under Nixon the fox had been in the henhouse longer than people were led to believe.
This set millions of working people back a decade or two, quite a few of them back a few generations. Plain & simple, if you could almost afford a car in 1971, by the time 1976 came around, you could almost afford half a car. If you were among the lucky ones to still have a job. Things were not only stagnant with fewer jobs for workers of all types, but there was no end in sight for anybody.
People just had to accept that nobody would be able to afford anything like they did before, especially employers offering decent-paying jobs, until things returned to normal. But years went by and there was still no sign that things would improve even for those who retained employment. Every year for the rest of the 1970's and well into the "belt-tightening of the '80's" people had to become accustomed to the fact that if "normal" was ever going to come back, it was so many years beyond the horizon that it would be difficult to know if you were really moving in that direction or not any more.
You think that was bad for working people? If you had a decent-paying career underway at the time earning about $40,000, and had to start over at entry-level of $20,000 that's only a $20,000 setback per year. Basically for the rest of your life but who's keeping score? However on a different scale if you had $100 million in liquid assets (regardless of whether there was any excess that was illiquid or not) you likely could barely make the purchases that merely cost $50 million only a few years earlier. That kind of $50 million loss of purchasing power as it nosedived along with everybody else was way beyond the scale suffered by average working people. So the very rich were "devastated" in a league of their own after much bigger dreams had been dashed than a working person can realistically muster no matter what. But at least they were still rich.
And realistically some of them were so well-heeled and so powerfully connected that they might be able to recover their lost purchasing power, if they pulled out all the stops in the most selfish and greedy way possible, most likely if it was at the expense of the greatest number of the financially weakest workers possible, and it still might not happen during the rich patriarch's remaining lifetime. But if everything went well, and if the earnings of capital from labor could be made more disproportionate, better in line with the mid-19th century for instance, they ought to be back at the top of their game by the 21st century at the latest. By that time it would surely require a significant multiple of what the "lost" $50 million would buy in 1971, which was already made impossible to calculate very realistically before the end of the '70's. Due to all the manipulation of sentiment over the years trying to stoke a consumer recovery which ended up existing only in the statistics but not on the ground. So the most financially powerful really had to pull out all the stops and not hold back ever since.
Anyway that's the vibe I got from the yachting community at the time.
And here we are.
mcphage · 8h ago
> I'm really starting to think that maybe national economics and it's relationship to global trade is, you know, complex, and not somehow magically "fixed" with simple stupid tarrif formulas....
Clean out your desk, you're fired!
evanjrowley · 10h ago
Popular commenters on that article are saying the overlooked factor is increases in labor supply driven by women, immigration, and baby boomers. Both increases in the labor supply and competition from China might be be significant forces for wage stagnation.
buckle8017 · 8h ago
So women, immigration, and baby boomers significantly changed the labor supply... not a billion people in China?
OK
fuzzfactor · 4h ago
Valid assumption since China has always been so huge, but was actually not yet a factor in domestic labor at that time.
The Nixon adinistration had recently effected more serious decoupling of the labor supply to wages anyway, by their deep anti-union actions in so many ways not even well-recognized then.
Nixon "opened up" China but in the 1970's they had still never yet had enough dollars to impact the balance of US trade in any significant way.
It took years after investment was allowed to be made in China by Americans, by many on Wall Street who started out reaping much more benefit than their Chinese counterparts, before there started to be the downward effect on US wages. Big financial giants were making actual bank(s) just from the growth in dollars transferred to China, not to mention the absolute total amount of dollars which was "instinctively" not intended to grow less than exponentially. After a few decades though, it was impossible not to consider the Chinese "better armed" with more ammunition than ever in case any kind of a currency war were to come along. Trade war could almost be considered a currency war denominated in physical assets instead, allowing opposing parties to arrive at a status quo regarding how much of each other's currency they possess once it quits fluctuating wildly. And be retained in case it escalates to actual currency war, where it might be a more damaging salvo. Notwithstanding that with the same dollar amounts one nation may be a "richer" country than another in other ways or currencies. Sometimes more rich from past progressive moves in aggregate, other times expected to be richer in the future from aggregate moves being made now or even momentum building under the surface in non-transparent situations.
In some imaginary world of perfect equations and other ideal assumptions, if an overseas nation had the same population as the USA, and actually held the same number of dollars as the USA still had remaining domestically, the wages would tend toward the lowest of the two locations.
Plus the women who were working full-time before things cratered were doing it for prosperity and relative independence to a very large extent, even though they were still paid much poorer and always had been, that's very much what filled the female ranks. The increase in numbers of working women after that point were more often for desperation after a single income could no longer support a family. When you watch prosperity disappear as an option first hand, it's a little more difficult to deny. At least there was eventually enough critical mass to make strides reducing the wage gap, but realistically things had been bungled so bad that there just wasn't enough to go around any more so men really were often paid less so women could be paid more fairly by comparison. Regardless, more opportunity had been lost than was often remaining for so many.
But it wasn't yet due to China, even though their exponential growth had been initiated, it was still far too few dollars to make a difference. But that's where all the manufacturing investment started going when it came to an abrupt halt domestically.
Even by 1979 and a bit beyond about the only thing in the US that I ever saw from China was their ginseng and you had to seek it out. It was like other specialty products not available anywhere else which was one of the main reasons for some imports from other countries a lot of times. Before they went through the roof from everywhere. American companies were still rarely going through the trouble of importing from a communist country at the time for any other reason, which was still no picnic. Reagan, like so many others from many political parties, always hated Communists. People even asked me if I was getting it legally :0 There was just nothing yet like a constant stream of low-cost consumer products from China, the lead-up to that had been handled by other Asian countries for over a decade by then though, their products were everywhere.
Falkon1313 · 4h ago
Yeah, makes me wonder where the author was during those decades.
Guess he never heard of the Rust Belt (or maybe thinks it's something holding up Iron Man's pants after a rainstorm?)
Coincidentally, that's also the period right after the Green Revolution and the time of the popularization of standardized intermodal shipping containers and also the filling out the U.S. interstate highway system. And when most passenger trains were shut down and the freight trains given free reign on the rails. Those logistical changes made a huge difference.
And it was also a time when communications and tech were making it much easier for businesses to coordinate cross-country and internationally.
Offshoring and outsourcing got really big during the early 1970s - mid 1990s. First with manufacturing and such and later with call centers and professional white-collar work.
By the late 90s, when the author says the stagnation ended, most of the things that could be offshored already had been. Then it was time to move on to things like JIT logistics, lean manufacturing, and automation.
Coincidentally the mid-late 90s were also the time when the internet was opened up to average people, and the PC market boomed, and just shortly before high long-distance charges were dropped. That is, when normal people began to get the ability to communicate and coordinate and automate some things as easily as big business had been for a couple decades.
There's also something to be said about the huge tax cuts for the wealthy during those stagnation decades. The shift in executive compensation becoming much more in stock, and the shift from paying dividends to doing stock buybacks. And it was also the era of corporate raiders. So many corporate raids and LBOs.
Meanwhile the government began shifting away from antitrust actions and started encouraging deregulation and consolidation instead. All of those changes largely were major shifts during that timeframe.
So yeah, globalization and neoliberal financialization were major impacts which, although they had not stopped, had somewhat stabilized by the 2000s.
They certainly didn't all start with NAFTA. That's just a loony idea.
For a couple of cultural notes, a full decade before NAFTA, Wal-Mart had a huge "Made In America" ad campaign in the 80s, and my grandparents insisted on shopping there because of that.
Back to the Future had a joke where Marty and Doc were arguing about a circuit that failed:
Doc: No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan".
Marty: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan.
Doc: Unbelievable.
You didn't have to be reading the business section of the newspaper, or even be an adult, to see it at the time.
6510 · 3h ago
Jack Ma had a fun perspective[1] (2017)
Not precisely his words but something like:
US companies made a shit ton of money. Then in 30 years the US spend 14.2 T$ on 13 wars.
What if they spend part of that money on infrastructure, helping the white collars and the blue collars - no matter how strategically good it is you are suppose to spend money on your own people.[...]
The money goes to Wallstreet and in 2008 the financial crisis wiped out 19.2 T$
What if that money was in stead spend on developing industry?
China did not steal US jobs, the US didn't distribute the money in a proper way.
The broad answer is well known: governmental capture allowed via multiple mechanisms for the near-total capture of real productivity gains to be collected by the wealthy.
This as most here can imagine allowed via recurrent acceleration for the profound wealth inequality we experience today, and directly produced our current collapse of democracy into literal kelpto-oligarchy backed by overwhelmingly powerful surveillance.
The 1% perceived and perceive no self-interest in a rising tide.
Now that hunter-killer machines both online and soon off shall reliably keep what people are still needed at bay, why would they?
I wish this were hyperbolic.
Neither diagnosis nor prediction is.
infogulch · 8h ago
Because wage stagnation is literally the Federal Reserve policy for the last 20 years.
The fed treats wage growth as a leading indicator inflation -- even though anyone with a brain knows that wages are the last thing to go up in an economic cycle, so if it's anything it must be a trailing indicator -- so when wages start to rise up the fed responds by increasing interest rates. Raising interest rates kills wage growth, as intended.
tl;dr: slam the economy every time wages start to go up for 20 years -> "why haven't wages gone up in 20 years" surprise pikachu face
mcphage · 8h ago
That doesn't match what the article is talking about, though. According to the article, the 20 years of wage stagnation was '73-'94—not the last 20 years.
rgreeko42 · 9h ago
I truly do not understand how Noah Smith, a truly vapid and frankly unintelligent writer, makes it to the front page of this website so often. His writing goes whichever way is soothing to those with money and power.
princealiiiii · 9h ago
On top of that, he has a deep hatred of Chinese, Russians, and Palestinians (basically anyone unaligned with US policy) that he likes to blame for everything - not just the governments, but the actual people of these countries.
jauntywundrkind · 9h ago
I wish we had better ways to build these cases. To collect the various anecdotes and whinges, to aggregate them them together. I want evidence, bona-fides, or a list of comments I've liked with people doing criticism on someone, to be able to drop down when bad people and bad outlets show up again in the feed.
Noah Smith definitely deserves this warning. All sorts of stories of ridiculous overconfidence & oversimplification in the the dumbest of reasonings, dating back for many many many years.
I'd assumed growing up others would also tend towards the ultra online, that the smart ones were pioneering a lifestyle of intelligence and consideration, of hunting for context to understand the tidbits er run across, to consider widely. I'd assumed networking would spawn & spread to help show the back stories of those who we read.
But today, the lack of social defense against bad and or incomeptent seems so so so resounding in the world.
The dude tries to clown on the idea that ending the gold standard wrecked the economy, but his whole argument is just cherry-picked stats, strawman takes, and straight-up ignoring how money actually works.
First off, he mocks the divorce rate thing like "lol goldbugs think couples fight about monetary policy." Nah, fam. It's about how fiat money led to inflation, stagnant wages, and financial stress that actually strains marriages. No-fault divorce laws came after the economic chaos started, but he acts like they are the only factor. Weak.
Then he claims the wage-productivity gap didn’t start till the 1980s. Even the EPI data he cites shows the split beginning in the early '70s. And yeah, healthcare costs eat into wages, but that doesn’t explain why real compensation (including benefits) still lags behind productivity. Fiat money let corporations and Wall Street siphon off wealth while workers got screwed but he just shrugs like "idk, must be computers or something."
On inflation, he’s like "lol inflation just exists, stay mad." Nah, pre-1971, inflation was stable and low. Post-1971? Wild swings, 14% peaks, and a permanent erosion of purchasing power. He acts like floating currencies = stability, but the "Great Moderation" was just Volcker slamming the brakes with insane rates not some magic of fiat money.
Housing prices? He blames zoning (fair) but completely ignores how cheap credit from fiat money blew up the bubble. He admits low rates jack up home prices but then pretends it's got nothing to do with the Fed's endless money printer. Cognitive dissonance much?
Worst part? He compares the site to anti-vaxxers because "things went up since 1971." Bruh. The end of Bretton Woods was a structural break. Debt exploded, inequality skyrocketed, and financialization took over. That ain't random. But instead of offering an actual counter-theory, he just sneers and says "buy Bitcoin lol" like that's a dunk. All snark, no substance. Fiat money broke the economy, and this guy is just coping. Stay mad
bryanlarsen · 8h ago
I'm referring to the thousands of HN reader comments that tear apart both the "bad economics" article and the wtfhappened site.
It is ridiculous to dismiss the gold standard thing like it’s some fringe conspiracy, saying "mainstream economists" prefer blaming oil shocks or regulations. The 1971 move to fiat money wasn't just about ditching gold. It let the Fed print like crazy, inflating assets (stocks, real estate) while wages flatlined. Even guys like Krugman admit loose money screws workers. The charts don’t lie. Divergence started right in '71, not '73 when OPEC flexed. And if oil was the problem, why did Germany and Japan handle it without wrecking their middle class?
Then there's the "women flooded the workforce" excuse. Sure, more workers can lower wages, but productivity kept climbing but wages did NOT. That’s not supply and demand, that's corporations grabbing more power (thanks, dead unions). And "household income" rose? Only because families were grinding two jobs just to stay afloat. Not exactly winning.
China? Lol. In '71, China was still a backwater. Their real economic boom didn’t hit till the 1990s. And offshoring only worked because the fiat dollar let the U.S. run endless trade deficits without consequences. Try that on a gold standard. It would collapse in a WEEK.
Oh, and the EPA? Pollution regs saved lives, and the '80s proved deregulation didn’t fix wages it just let Wall Street go wild. The real issue? Money got fake, capital divorced from labor, and the 1% hoarded the gains.
Bottom line: The so called "rebuttals" from HN commenters are a mess of half-baked excuses. If oil, women, or China were the culprits, why did everything flip exactly post 1971? The gold standard's end is the smoking gun. And the "mainstream economists" pushing these weak takes? Same geniuses who missed 2008. Maybe time to stop trusting their playbook.
fuzzfactor · 3h ago
It's not good to exaggerate financial ups & downs but some things can get more foolish than that when people try to minimize it or paint over it.
As time goes by, more people seem to need more excuses to maintain a position that there was not irreversible devastating damage to the US economy, and in tandem the dollar itself. They want to believe that things like that can never be the direct result of Presidential malfeasance which can get out of hand.
If you were there at the time and had very much professional exposure to Wall Street at all, as a witness you would have observed 2008 as a non-event compared to 1973.
Without much advanced math very many people saw it coming right away in 1971 before the next logical events even began to unfold. There were still plenty of people born in the 19th century who could tell you exactly how it was going to be. They were just not the majority. The stock market did end up crashing like nothing had since 1929.
It was good to have advice from those with serious lived experiences to help navigate such turbulent times.
mplewis · 9h ago
This site is completely crank.
ty6853 · 10h ago
Technology and automation likely lead to the lion's share in productivity increase. Thus we have seen at least one mode of tech wages that focus on creating higher productivity systems staying strong while many other segments stagnate.
Meanwhile I don't see any evidence education in the past 20 years in the US has yielded a significantly higher quality and efficiency of candidate.
If you want more money all else equal you have to bring something more to the table. If all you bring to the table is being able to use a more efficient machine it's not clear why your wage would elevate rather than the value of the machine (capital) elevating. Merely having as good an education as the guy 20 years ago isn't going to cut it.
DangitBobby · 10h ago
I like to think if I employed people, I'd want them to make more money when the company makes more money. It's probably weird to think the entire point of companies, the economy, and society at large is to improve life, though. And I think I'm just slow because I need it spelled out for me how a CEO or the company itself "earned" the gains from automation and productivity tools (that they almost certainly didn't invent themselves) while the employees are just lucky to still be employed.
supportengineer · 10h ago
Regarding your last sentence - you're describing the "class war".
ty6853 · 10h ago
I think the problem is in a market, at least theoretically, both parties have to offer some mutually beneficial additional benefit in order to capture additional value. Otherwise one side will reject the agreement, because both parties have to be better off for an exchange to happen.
nathan_compton · 10h ago
But the agreement will be unfair in precise accord with the degree of power imbalance between the parties. Like if you know the president will call in the national guard to break your strike, you'll accept lower wages.
DangitBobby · 9h ago
I think it's safe to say there was a period of time where employees were expected to capture a larger proportion of the value from the technology they utilized in the course of their work than they do now, and they did so despite market forces.
ty6853 · 9h ago
Companies were definitely as greedy during the 'robber baron' days between the civil war and ~1913 when the market was way less restricted, during which workers saw much greater gains, even in the face of mass violence against worker mobilization.
Interesting situation indeed.
hnthrow90348765 · 10h ago
The lack of egalitarian ideals is strictly down to culture among the rich (that is, CEOs, politicians, etc.) and how the country is run.
Capitalism is about competition which inevitably leads to minimizing the cost of labor, and includes no inherent safe guards to protect workers other than what skills they might have. This is why unions had to be formed and is why there is the tension between workers rights and companies today.
nativeit · 9h ago
Capitalism loathes competition.
lotsofpulp · 5h ago
Humans, and probably all animals, loathe competition. Who wants to fight for resources if they don’t have to?
charcircuit · 10h ago
At least for public companies employees can buy stock in their company to get exposure to the gains.
marssaxman · 9h ago
Investing your capital into the same company which pays your salary is the opposite of diversification, no? The advice I've always read is to sell your ESPP shares immediately, thereby realizing the discount percentage, then put the money into VTSAX or some comparable fund.
charcircuit · 9h ago
I never said it would diversify. I said that you would be able to make more money when the company makes more money.
sanderjd · 9h ago
Not if they work for a private company. Arguably, employees should just avoid working for private companies that have no mechanism for employees to participate in their equity. But in practice this is unrealistic for lots of people.
IAmBroom · 9h ago
Now, thankfully, yes.
There used to be a high $ hurdle to opening investment accounts.
lotsofpulp · 10h ago
How would you compete with other businesses’s that either choose to lower prices or increase investment funding due to the equity’s higher ROI?
The market works because all actors are buyers and sellers, and when buying, you are seeking the lowest price, and when selling, you are seeking the highest price.
If you stop doing that, someone will outcompete you by allocating resources better (absent corruption). It even applies on a household level, where if you spend extra on charity or groceries or whatever, you will have a smaller downpayment to compete for the house you want.
Also, generally, employee pay is highly correlate with the employer’s profit margin (outside of healthcare due to heavy government involvement).
DangitBobby · 9h ago
If you have to compete then you have to compete. Let's not pretend that prudent reinvestment of hard-won gains in the face of fierce competition is how wealth inequality has managed to spiral out of control, though. There's econ 101 and then there's reality.
Edit: Also looking for how this market theory explains absurd CEO compensation packages in a world where they quite obviously are not worth the price tag.
Night_Thastus · 9h ago
I think you've missed the point. The issue isn't that people want more buying power for the same effort.
The issue is that everything they buy has gotten more expensive. When groceries, rent, cars, medical bills, etc all go up but wages are stagnant, people get crushed.
Some luxury goods have gone down over time, like electronics. But the essentials have all gotten worse.
I'm not sure exactly the relationship between wage growth and restriction of housing growth but the fact that these phenomenon seemed to happen in lockstep merits some reflection. Prop 13 also came in 1973.
They managed to find the one fucking way to make additional housing make being a new homeowner even more expensive, and I believe it was not by accident.
No politician wants more affordable housing in a place where >65% of voters are property owners...
Nothing against allowing lot splits, but this is the wrong reason to be for it. The reasoning in the previous to replies reaks of "homeownership is more virtuous than renting" which is not true. And besides, if you really want more homeownership, the most important path forward is condos, and thus condo defect liability reform.
In the philosophical extreme, if zoning allowed infinite density you could stick a hong-kong style condo skyscraper for the entire population on 0.1 acres and the rest of the land would provide no additional housing utility pushing prices down to whatever the value it is as farmland/business/recreation. The housing value of surrounding land would plumet.
Low land prices are indicative of less restrictive zoning. In more restrictive zoning that punishes building houses on small plots, land becomes more valuable because the land is the license to build a house. i.e. where I live I had to buy more land than I needed because without it I could not build my house, which drives up land prices (increased demand).
The reason why california ADU increase parcel prices is because it prints an additional house license while being illegal to split it off. Otherwise you would be left with two cheaper parcels, although in sum they may be more expensive, but you would still pay less for enough land for license to print a house.
No I mean the land value of where the density is / right next to it. In your example, the land with the crazy tower / right next to it would be incredibly valuable.
If other areas use land value, that's because the land value is being concentrated in/around the dense areas.
When we talk about upzoning, we want to not only do less sprawl, but also increase overall population (growth will attract population). The exurbs will loose land value, but the cities will gain immense land value, and the suburbs will gain some land value too.
Since a large portion housing is currently locked up in 30 year mortgages in a once in a lifetime COVID era near 0% loan that people will not give up for less than a king's ransom, we should be especially sensitive of price of land for new construction, and that will continue to be a dominant factor in rental costs and home prices.
Land in Hong-Kong and Manhattan is more expensive. And arbitrarily tall tour makes its tiny neighborhood of land arbitrary valuable.
Your also assuming housing demand is exogenous to land use — e.g. that everyone that would live in SF but can't afford it lives in Tracy. That's not true. If you make SF contain 3.5 million people, at Manhattan density, you better believe we'll not suck all the people out of Palo Alto or Oakland, but also increase demand in those areas. Fremont would have more demand but less so, Pleasanton in not sure, and the central valley exurbs less demand.
Who cares about "being a new homeowner" (ie. housing as an investment)? I think the far more important thing to care about is housing as a service, ie. being able to find an affordable place to live. Housing is not a great investment. It lags behind equities, isn't diversified, and is an unproductive asset. As such, I'm not going to care too much that people can't get in on the action.
Secure shelter is a necessary pre-requisite to having and raising children. The low birth-rate is a direct result of disadvantaged capital formation, selection interference, and the chaotic and growingly insecure future economically.
Housing is a great and tax favored investment if you know what you are doing. Cash flow is king. That said, rent-seeking behavior is non-productive, and vile in a lot of ways, and equally regulation to address issues is so poorly written that it ends up destroying the market wholesale.
If you take a look at the demographics and trends, we may actually end up having a housing surplus within a decade.
Housing in Singapore is famously affordable, but it has the lowest birth rates. Same goes for Japan, or other European countries where house prices haven't skyrocketed but birthrates are still plummeting. There's just no good data backing your claim.
>Housing is a great and tax favored investment if you know what you are doing. Cash flow is king.
Explain. How does a house have better tax treatment and cash flow than buying a vanguard ETF? You might get to deduct your mortgage interest, but you can also deduct margin interest in a brokerage account. I can't see how signing up for a 30year commitment, 20% down payment, and 6% realtor fees is good for cash flow.
Monetary debasement (money-printing) explains the issues. The chaos is explained by Mises with regards to centralized systems as early as the 1930s.
There's really no point in discussion when the majority is noise.
The business-owner class benefits from the health system, because the business-owners are the gatekeepers of healthcare (typically, people get healthcare only through their employer). The worker class is less likely to benefit from the free part of the "free market" because their healthcare is tied to their employer; it's just harder to do anything except work a typical 9-to-5 for the benefit of a business-owner.
The healthcare industry also benefits because they get to suck up a large portion of the GDP; trillions of dollars.
So wages aren't only flat, but the wage growth that should have happened instead went into a corrupt system. Wages aren't honestly flat because of natural market forces, they are corruptly flat.
That is a new argument, coming from health care is a right and good for society?
It’s kinda crazy you want to dismiss this simply because it benefits some group of people you don’t like.
In any se your argument is this is worse. And I argue this is good, fair and meritocratic , and sustainable.
While the USA has wealth, you can simply expand your idea beyond the walked garden of a single country and to the world stage. There is no way with today’s tech and cost of labor could we ever give free health care to everybody. World wide there are far more people who exist, than people who exist and contribute back to society.
The dream of unlimited free healthcare can only be archived once > 90% of humans are producing more than they consume, which war are no where near even in the richest of rich, the USA.
If the USA cut it's funding in these lines Europe would be back to square one in a very shot time.
That doesn't feel right to me.
In the most recent year with data, as a percentage of gdp:
party healthcare military
eu 10.95% 1.56%
usa 17.36% 3.45%
stark difference, but "the only reason eu has socialized healthcare is because of their low military spending" just doesn't reconcile in my mind to the above numbers
[source data](https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/euu/eur...)
Without a robust social safety net, only the rich and well-connected can afford to take economic risks. Eventually, this just results in a flat-out oligarchy.
Previously (example numbers): Median compensation is $55k + health insurance.
After: Median compensation is $55k + health insurance.
"So nothing changed?"
"Wrong! Health insurance costs more for the same benefits, so really, you got a raise!"
Yeah, sorry if I'm not celebrating.
If comp keeps pace with productivity but is all eaten up by healthcare costs, either something caused people to willingly spend much more of their money on healthcare costs than they'd do earlier (aging maybe? obesity maybe?) or something is going crazy with healthcare expenses.
I've heard persuasive evidence that if you control for obesity the costs look ok actually.
It's even worse than that, health insurance costs more for less benefits.
I have seen companies turn down good candidates for jobs too many times, as a result of speculating that the candidate is too good (they'll expect to get paid more). You don't even have to ask for high wages, you have to dumb down your resume and underplay yourself at some point if you want to be considered for a majority of non-junior roles these days, just so you get a shot at an actual interview and low-ball offer.
Are you talking about low wage workers, or minimum wage workers? The minimum wage is so low that only 1-2% of workers earn minimum wage.
There's a reason it's very hard to vote in some places, election day isn't a national holiday, etc.
Probably a coincidence
The reason that excess labor doesn't drive down wages is because they spend those wages on rolls dice labor intensive things? This makes no sense in any direction.
I'm reading through the beginning, which was a little sus, then jumped to the end and loathe to read most of this handwaving.
* The Boomers, an extremely large generation, enter the workforce in number in the 70's...
* Simultaneously, the older generations with more of the industrial and trades know-how that powered the mid-century economy are now retiring.
* The new focus of the economy in the 70's involved a restructuring around imported-goods, services, high tech, with corresponding winners and losers.
* Part of this restructuring also involved a revamped military to roll out the new "smart weapons" and run a professionalized military instead of the conscription troops that fought in Vietnam.
When you add those trends together, it will look like a stagnant graph: investing in high-tech doesn't come with immediate payoffs, and the new cohort is larger so they have to compete more intensively for top positions while not having the job experiences of the previous. DoD spending has an outsized influence on the balance sheet, and 1994 marks the start of the Internet boom, which reflects the tech sector's move away from defense contracts(the end of the Cold War came with major layoffs in defense) and towards VC moonshots, right around the same time that Gen X is entering - a much smaller generation. The Boomers are at that point entering more senior career roles; both cohorts are productive in the sense of facilitating deskilling, offshoring and cost-cutting, which make the balance sheets of the 90's look great, and reflective in many cases of genuine efficiencies that were now coming to fruition.
0. https://youtu.be/QPKKQnijnsM
* Union Busting
* Wall Street pushing growth above profits
* US Gov policies since 1981
You're right to suggest it's really multiple reasons that need to be considered to get the full picture. They're interconnected. Gov policies weaken unions. Weak unions allow corporation to take advantage of workers, at the behest of wall street. Money gets concentrated, gov policies get bought. The cycle goes on. In this way, we can say the effect is systemic, and fixing the issue will take undoing most, if not all, of the causes.
> But we should always be suspicious of complex, multi-factorial explanations for trend breaks on a chart. That wage stagnation started and ended suddenly enough that it cries out for a simple story. We just don’t have one yet.
Although I don't really understand that at all. It seems like simple singular solutions should be the ones we're suspicious of.
The dominant business philosophy from the late 40s to the 70s was stakeholder capitalism, then this asshat came along and said quite specifically: greed is not just a force we'll co-opt for pro-social purposes, it is not a mitigable downside of economic growth, it is actually the entire purpose of any commercial enterprise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine
It is shamefully antisocial and un-American. Today it's so baked-in that many young entrepreneurs don't even realize it's a goofy ass meme that only a moron could expect to yield good outcomes.
>Friedman argued that the shareholders can then decide for themselves what social initiatives to take part in rather than have an executive whom the shareholders appointed explicitly for business purposes decide such matters for them
That seems... fine? Is letting Ford shareholders decide what political causes to fund really that much worse than delegating that to Henry Ford, which subsequently decided to support nazi-adjacent groups?
Prior to this, corporations explicitly sought to generate value for shareholders, employees, managers, customers, and their communities. Since shareholders were always one of the stakeholders, the only delta – Milton's breakthrough – was to assert that a corporation need not even consider the other stakeholders. So yes, going from "corporations should aim to be a positive force on everyone they affect" to "corporations need only aim to generate returns for their owners" is a significant downgrade.
With regard to your specific set-up, even there yes it's actually worse. It's better that the shareholders (who ultimately control the company's allocation of capital) feel an obligation to benefit all stakeholders than just giving as much money to themselves and Henry personally so they can all pursue their own pet projects which would themselves be operated under the same self-enriching philosophy.
Just to clarify since people can be confused by the excerpt you've pulled: the prior state of affairs wasn't that shareholders named someone to allocate corporations' money into various political projects. It was that shareholders (and society writ large) expected executives to be a positive impact on all relevant stakeholders. Dumping toxic material into the river is bad even if it improves margins, not because it's illegal, but because it's damaging to the other stakeholders you are supposed to benefit. Milton came along and said no actually that's fine. Don't do illegal things to the extent it harms shareholder returns, but in general you need to do whatever it takes to generate shareholder returns.
This seems like you're viewing the past with rose tinted glasses. The whole point of the passage of the clean air act (1963) and the EPA was that companies were dumping toxic materials into rivers, even under "stakeholder capitalism" (your article says that the Friendman doctrine was introduced in 1970). Same goes with all the other example of corporate malfeasance, such as The Jungle (published 1906), or Unsafe at Any Speed (1965).
Prior to stakeholder capitalism, industrialization was downright inhumane. After stakeholder capitalism, it's trending toward social and political instability.
During stakeholder capitalism: considered the glory days of American civilization (despite its serious flaws, which we need not ignore).
Could be a coincidence! But I actually think people's beliefs shape their actions, and "my god-given duty is to generate shareholder returns, all else be damned" looks like a prime candidate for all sorts of post-1970 corporate misbehavior.
(The Jungle predates stakeholder capitalism. The Jungle, Silent Spring and Unsafe At Any Speed were forces within that philosophical movement)
When did stakeholder capitalism magically pop up and made industrialization not "downright inhumane"? The end of stakeholder capitalism can be traced to Milton Friendman's works, what evidence is there of stakeholder emerging after the "downright inhumane" period before?
> After stakeholder capitalism, it's trending toward social and political instability.
>During stakeholder capitalism: considered the glory days of the American society.
Again, rose tinted glasses: the same period had Cuban Missile crisis, Vietnam war drafts, and the Kent State shootings. Granted, most of them probably didn't have anything to do with stakeholder capitalism, but it's laughable to call it "the glory days of the American society". Moreover have things really fared better in places with "stakeholder capitalism"? For all the talk of "common prosperity", China isn't doing too hot either, with its cratered housing market, high youth unemployment, and low consumer confidence.
When socialism and communism were perceived as legitimate ideological threats/alternatives to democracy and capitalism.
While we know now that communism as an ideology (at least as it was practiced in the mid-20th century at the nation-state level) is not long-term viable, this was not considered a certainty at that time.
So many of the updated social contracts (both explicit and implicit) that were put into place in the mid-20th century were done in an attempt to avoid/prevent a worker revolution.
Imho, another wave of mass discontent is brewing — the elites in the US are very much out of touch with or ambivalent to the needs of the rest of the country.
Can you cite specific polices or reforms? What makes you think they "were done in an attempt to avoid/prevent a worker revolution", as opposed to normal reform? What does it say that landmark legislation was passed at the tail end of that period, such as the clean air act? If stakeholder capitalism's "social contracts" were really keeping things together, why was legislation needed?
> Can you cite specific polices or reforms?
New Deal writ large, specifically social security, development and empowerment of labor unions (Wagner Act), public works projects (WPA and CCC). Also the GI Bill. These are some major examples.
> What makes you think they "were done in an attempt to avoid/prevent a worker revolution", as opposed to normal reform?
Because I’ve read history, including original sources. There was quite a bit of serious rhetoric around the potential for socialism in the US.
> What does it say that landmark legislation was passed at the tail end of that period, such as the clean air act?
I don’t really understand your question, and I have no idea where you’re going with this. I’m almost certain that any question you have on this matter has been answered online in vivid detail.
> If stakeholder capitalism's "social contracts" were really keeping things together, why was legislation needed?
Legislation was the “explicit” part that I mentioned. Better wording probably would have been “laws, policies, and social contracts”, but I’m just writing informal replies on the internet.
The 20th century was a heady time. I’m not sure how old you are or how much history you’ve studied, but there is a lot of really good content out there. I encourage you to engage with it.
>Legislation was the “explicit” part that I mentioned. Better wording probably would have been “laws, policies, and social contracts”, but I’m just writing informal replies on the internet.
How are any of those examples of "stakeholder capitalism"? I can see they were pro worker and "an attempt to avoid/prevent a worker revolution", but that's not the same as companies caring about all stakeholders because they had some sense of responsibility. Recall the contention is that after Milton Friedman published his paper in 1970, companies suddenly started becoming greedy and started oppressing consumers/workers or whatever, whereas before it was "stakeholder capitalism" and they weren't doing that.
Sorry are you asking me to prove that stakeholder capitalism existed from the ~1940s to the ~1970s? I'm not going to give a 200 level Business History course in a Hacker News comment thread. You can use Google.
> Again, rose tinted glasses...
I don't know what point you think you're arguing against, but it ain't one of mine!
China doesn't have stakeholder capitalism.
Given that the wikipedia article says that a 1984 book was "widely cited in the field as being the foundation of stakeholder theory", that the first mention was in 1912, and there's nothing about the post-war period or communism, I'm very skeptical that your "~1940s to the ~1970s" window for stakeholder capitalism was defined in a rigorous way. It seems far more likely you're committing the texas sharpshooter's fallacy by finding a period of american prosperity (ie. "~1940s to the ~1970s"), defining that to be "stakeholder capitalism", and concluding that it was a great success.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stakeholder_theory
>China doesn't have stakeholder capitalism.
You're not really refuting the point. "Common prosperity" sounds a lot like stakeholder capitalism, specifically improving the lives of other citizens/the country as a whole, rather than the company.
The argument isn't that any of this began with NAFTA. The argument as I've always understood it was that it began as the Neoliberal project which started in the late 60s, and early 70s.
The 1973-1994 period wasn't before globalization. It was the period where the groundwork was laid to make labor vulnerable to the type of globalization that neoliberals wanted.
The threat of capital flight for example was already being used to attack workers.
The breakdown of the Bretton Woods system was the start which aligns perfectly with the time period.
Noam Chomsky on the topic
"Bretton Woods restrictions on finance were dismantled, finance was freed, speculation boomed, huge amounts of capital started going into speculation against currencies and other paper manipulations, and the entire economy became financialized.
The power of the economy shifted to the financial institutions, away from manufacturing. And since then, the majority of the population has had a very tough time; in fact it may be a unique period in American history. There’s no other period where real wages — wages adjusted for inflation — have more or less stagnated for so long for a majority of the population and where living standards have stagnated or declined." - https://chomsky.info/20090210/
So we start off with an flawed view of the world, and then we move forward with the argument to explain it through other means.
The 1973-1994 wage stagnation isn't a "mystery" caused by a patchwork of unrelated events. It's a direct consequence of a fundamental, politically driven shift in the economic regime, specifically the dismantling of the Bretton Woods system in the early 1970s and the subsequent financialization of the economy and deregulation.
More workers vying for the same jobs--supply and demand driving down labor costs?
> Update: Some people have been asking me if the wage stagnation of 1973-1994 might have been caused by the mass entry of women into the U.S. workforce. Here’s the employment rate (also called the “employment-population ratio”) for American women:
[see article for graph]
You can see that the first part of the timing doesn’t line up here. When the wage stagnation began, American women had already been entering the workforce at a steady clip for 25 years. (The labor force participation rate for women looks much the same). Also, empirical evidence suggests at most a small effect of female labor supply on male wages — and if you look at the breakdown for men and women, you see that the stagnation for men was worse than for women over 1973-1994.
And theoretically speaking, women’s mass entry into the workforce shouldn’t produce an overall decline in wages. Just like immigration or a baby boom, women’s entry into the workforce is both a positive labor supply shock and also a positive labor demand shock at the same time — when women earn more, they spend most of what they earn, on things that require labor to produce.1 So we shouldn’t expect the addition of women to the workforce to hold down wages.
Thus, this theory also doesn’t line up with the timing of the stagnation, and it’s not clear why we would expect it to be a major factor in the first place.
EOF
Uh, what happens if the labor to produce things costs pennies because it's all been shipped out to China?
Why would that be hard to understand? When companies don't need to compete for your labor they won't.
Also it's not just wages. The entire market is stagnant. Innovation has ground to a halt and billions are poured into wasteful deadend technologies.
Valid hypothesis. Needs to be substantiated, as the author has done, and explain the stagnation and real wage increases.
It is. I'm just not willing to do that here as I'm not writing an article just making a comment.
> as the author has done
Myself and the author have completely different aims with the use of our time.
> and explain the stagnation and real wage increases
Doesn't the article point out that most of these increases have only gone to the already wealthy? It seems that even with an explanation failing to contextualize it reduces the value of the explanation to zero. The author, while substantial, has missed this point staring them right in the face.
That seems either extremely naive or intentionally deceptive.
Globalization began in 1972 with the opening of China.
Which of course perfectly lines up with the stagnation of American wages.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_visit_by_Richard_Nixon_...
https://chinese-legal-studies.law.columbia.edu/sites/chinese...
The US didn't have persistent trade deficits until 1982, and even that reversed by 1992. It was 1997-2006 that the trade deficit as a share of GDP exploded.
Trade with China was insignificant before 2005; more often than not the US had a surplus with China. We sold them a lot of wheat.
Imagine country A makes a product (like say wheat) where the number of jobs needed to make that value is low; while country B makes a product like say, apples, which takes a lot of jobs to produce.
So country A sells say a $1mil load of wheat (10 jobs) and buys $2mil of apples (1000 jobs.)
If we're just measuring trade, the A buys more from B. If we're measuring jobs then B "buys" more than A.
So, maybe, instead of just measuring the value of yhe trade, we need to consider the labor cost of the trade?
I'm really starting to think that maybe national economics and it's relationship to global trade is, you know, complex, and not somehow magically "fixed" with simple stupid tarrif formulas....
Something to consider in your thought process - take two relatively recent stimulus efforts - 2008 and 2020 - the first was primarily quantitative easing - a classic trickle down effort since all the money went to bank balance sheets and trickled down to individuals, the QE stimulus had almost no impact on inflation. Vs Covid which was direct household stimulus and immediately led to inflationary pressure.
A link I don't see mentioned often is most central banks didn't start an inflation targeting policy until the 90s. Prior to that it was still an objective but managed much worse. https://www.richmondfed.org/publications/research/econ_focus.... this link contains a chart that looks at the inflation volatility over time.
I happen to think that a consequence of managed inflation, balanced against aggregate employment is consistent wage pressure. In essence, wage growth in my mental model on this is a consequence where upward inflation swings drive wage gains, while downward ones drive more unemployment. If inflation is managed closely to avoid volatility, then redistributive effects of volatility are limited.
Yup, because you can't have very extensive globalization without bigger ships than you had beforehand, and more of them.
And historically the ships have always needed to be welcome in ports around the globe more so than not.
When you think about it, the USA was founded by multi-national corporations for the benefit of multi-national corporations. They were the ones who could best afford to send ships this way consistently enough.
>maybe that's not the right unit when measuring jobs.
Yeah I think you still need to first measure cargo by the tonne. And then some. The jobs required are already completed by the time the vessel is loaded. What you really have is different cargoes in different amounts at different values in different currencies in disparate locations. The value earned by the manufacturer and trader may represent the work of a wildly different number of jobs or "equivalent" "man"-"hours" exchanged between global operators, even when the balance of trade is considered neutral by one party or another. Then further in some type of job-number terms, different numbers of jobs have different impact on different locations and at different times, even if the currency involved is agreeable to all parties over the long term. So there are a number of moving-target variables other than just dollars or any one currency, and beyond jobs or even absolute tonnage. One thing's sure, any one currency alone is not a very realistic measure of trade balance by long shot.
And different amounts of tonnage may benefit some locations more than others, while also not capable of being well-correlated with any currency value assigned, therefore difficult to account for using financial balance. You do have to also consider that all kinds of trades are made where at least one party is not actually getting their money's worth, sometimes all parties, and trades are still made willingly because they will all still make money in the end anyway, just maybe not as much as they had originally hoped for. Then how do you compare ship after ship of things that may be cheap and fly off the shelf in one currency but still not be worth the money and/or any hidden exchange deficit by far? Against return vessels of a full-value commodity at fair market prices, where everyone gets their money's worth almost every voyage? Time after time different things are bound to add up in different ways.
Now by 1973 the opportunities for prosperity were receding noticeably faster than the previous couple years and it looked like the dollar would be down to half its purchasing power like nobody ever dreamed and there was nothing that could be done about it. There did turn out to be no avoiding that milestone which was reached by about 1976, because basically under Nixon the fox had been in the henhouse longer than people were led to believe.
This set millions of working people back a decade or two, quite a few of them back a few generations. Plain & simple, if you could almost afford a car in 1971, by the time 1976 came around, you could almost afford half a car. If you were among the lucky ones to still have a job. Things were not only stagnant with fewer jobs for workers of all types, but there was no end in sight for anybody.
People just had to accept that nobody would be able to afford anything like they did before, especially employers offering decent-paying jobs, until things returned to normal. But years went by and there was still no sign that things would improve even for those who retained employment. Every year for the rest of the 1970's and well into the "belt-tightening of the '80's" people had to become accustomed to the fact that if "normal" was ever going to come back, it was so many years beyond the horizon that it would be difficult to know if you were really moving in that direction or not any more.
You think that was bad for working people? If you had a decent-paying career underway at the time earning about $40,000, and had to start over at entry-level of $20,000 that's only a $20,000 setback per year. Basically for the rest of your life but who's keeping score? However on a different scale if you had $100 million in liquid assets (regardless of whether there was any excess that was illiquid or not) you likely could barely make the purchases that merely cost $50 million only a few years earlier. That kind of $50 million loss of purchasing power as it nosedived along with everybody else was way beyond the scale suffered by average working people. So the very rich were "devastated" in a league of their own after much bigger dreams had been dashed than a working person can realistically muster no matter what. But at least they were still rich.
And realistically some of them were so well-heeled and so powerfully connected that they might be able to recover their lost purchasing power, if they pulled out all the stops in the most selfish and greedy way possible, most likely if it was at the expense of the greatest number of the financially weakest workers possible, and it still might not happen during the rich patriarch's remaining lifetime. But if everything went well, and if the earnings of capital from labor could be made more disproportionate, better in line with the mid-19th century for instance, they ought to be back at the top of their game by the 21st century at the latest. By that time it would surely require a significant multiple of what the "lost" $50 million would buy in 1971, which was already made impossible to calculate very realistically before the end of the '70's. Due to all the manipulation of sentiment over the years trying to stoke a consumer recovery which ended up existing only in the statistics but not on the ground. So the most financially powerful really had to pull out all the stops and not hold back ever since.
Anyway that's the vibe I got from the yachting community at the time.
And here we are.
Clean out your desk, you're fired!
OK
The Nixon adinistration had recently effected more serious decoupling of the labor supply to wages anyway, by their deep anti-union actions in so many ways not even well-recognized then.
Nixon "opened up" China but in the 1970's they had still never yet had enough dollars to impact the balance of US trade in any significant way.
It took years after investment was allowed to be made in China by Americans, by many on Wall Street who started out reaping much more benefit than their Chinese counterparts, before there started to be the downward effect on US wages. Big financial giants were making actual bank(s) just from the growth in dollars transferred to China, not to mention the absolute total amount of dollars which was "instinctively" not intended to grow less than exponentially. After a few decades though, it was impossible not to consider the Chinese "better armed" with more ammunition than ever in case any kind of a currency war were to come along. Trade war could almost be considered a currency war denominated in physical assets instead, allowing opposing parties to arrive at a status quo regarding how much of each other's currency they possess once it quits fluctuating wildly. And be retained in case it escalates to actual currency war, where it might be a more damaging salvo. Notwithstanding that with the same dollar amounts one nation may be a "richer" country than another in other ways or currencies. Sometimes more rich from past progressive moves in aggregate, other times expected to be richer in the future from aggregate moves being made now or even momentum building under the surface in non-transparent situations.
In some imaginary world of perfect equations and other ideal assumptions, if an overseas nation had the same population as the USA, and actually held the same number of dollars as the USA still had remaining domestically, the wages would tend toward the lowest of the two locations.
Plus the women who were working full-time before things cratered were doing it for prosperity and relative independence to a very large extent, even though they were still paid much poorer and always had been, that's very much what filled the female ranks. The increase in numbers of working women after that point were more often for desperation after a single income could no longer support a family. When you watch prosperity disappear as an option first hand, it's a little more difficult to deny. At least there was eventually enough critical mass to make strides reducing the wage gap, but realistically things had been bungled so bad that there just wasn't enough to go around any more so men really were often paid less so women could be paid more fairly by comparison. Regardless, more opportunity had been lost than was often remaining for so many.
But it wasn't yet due to China, even though their exponential growth had been initiated, it was still far too few dollars to make a difference. But that's where all the manufacturing investment started going when it came to an abrupt halt domestically.
Even by 1979 and a bit beyond about the only thing in the US that I ever saw from China was their ginseng and you had to seek it out. It was like other specialty products not available anywhere else which was one of the main reasons for some imports from other countries a lot of times. Before they went through the roof from everywhere. American companies were still rarely going through the trouble of importing from a communist country at the time for any other reason, which was still no picnic. Reagan, like so many others from many political parties, always hated Communists. People even asked me if I was getting it legally :0 There was just nothing yet like a constant stream of low-cost consumer products from China, the lead-up to that had been handled by other Asian countries for over a decade by then though, their products were everywhere.
Guess he never heard of the Rust Belt (or maybe thinks it's something holding up Iron Man's pants after a rainstorm?)
Coincidentally, that's also the period right after the Green Revolution and the time of the popularization of standardized intermodal shipping containers and also the filling out the U.S. interstate highway system. And when most passenger trains were shut down and the freight trains given free reign on the rails. Those logistical changes made a huge difference.
And it was also a time when communications and tech were making it much easier for businesses to coordinate cross-country and internationally.
Offshoring and outsourcing got really big during the early 1970s - mid 1990s. First with manufacturing and such and later with call centers and professional white-collar work.
By the late 90s, when the author says the stagnation ended, most of the things that could be offshored already had been. Then it was time to move on to things like JIT logistics, lean manufacturing, and automation.
Coincidentally the mid-late 90s were also the time when the internet was opened up to average people, and the PC market boomed, and just shortly before high long-distance charges were dropped. That is, when normal people began to get the ability to communicate and coordinate and automate some things as easily as big business had been for a couple decades.
There's also something to be said about the huge tax cuts for the wealthy during those stagnation decades. The shift in executive compensation becoming much more in stock, and the shift from paying dividends to doing stock buybacks. And it was also the era of corporate raiders. So many corporate raids and LBOs.
Meanwhile the government began shifting away from antitrust actions and started encouraging deregulation and consolidation instead. All of those changes largely were major shifts during that timeframe.
So yeah, globalization and neoliberal financialization were major impacts which, although they had not stopped, had somewhat stabilized by the 2000s.
They certainly didn't all start with NAFTA. That's just a loony idea.
For a couple of cultural notes, a full decade before NAFTA, Wal-Mart had a huge "Made In America" ad campaign in the 80s, and my grandparents insisted on shopping there because of that.
Back to the Future had a joke where Marty and Doc were arguing about a circuit that failed:
Doc: No wonder this circuit failed. It says "Made in Japan". Marty: What do you mean, Doc? All the best stuff is made in Japan. Doc: Unbelievable.
You didn't have to be reading the business section of the newspaper, or even be an adult, to see it at the time.
Not precisely his words but something like:
US companies made a shit ton of money. Then in 30 years the US spend 14.2 T$ on 13 wars.
What if they spend part of that money on infrastructure, helping the white collars and the blue collars - no matter how strategically good it is you are suppose to spend money on your own people.[...]
The money goes to Wallstreet and in 2008 the financial crisis wiped out 19.2 T$
What if that money was in stead spend on developing industry?
China did not steal US jobs, the US didn't distribute the money in a proper way.
[1]- https://youtu.be/0jfYSncSTEY?t=43
This as most here can imagine allowed via recurrent acceleration for the profound wealth inequality we experience today, and directly produced our current collapse of democracy into literal kelpto-oligarchy backed by overwhelmingly powerful surveillance.
The 1% perceived and perceive no self-interest in a rising tide.
Now that hunter-killer machines both online and soon off shall reliably keep what people are still needed at bay, why would they?
I wish this were hyperbolic.
Neither diagnosis nor prediction is.
The fed treats wage growth as a leading indicator inflation -- even though anyone with a brain knows that wages are the last thing to go up in an economic cycle, so if it's anything it must be a trailing indicator -- so when wages start to rise up the fed responds by increasing interest rates. Raising interest rates kills wage growth, as intended.
tl;dr: slam the economy every time wages start to go up for 20 years -> "why haven't wages gone up in 20 years" surprise pikachu face
Noah Smith definitely deserves this warning. All sorts of stories of ridiculous overconfidence & oversimplification in the the dumbest of reasonings, dating back for many many many years.
I'd assumed growing up others would also tend towards the ultra online, that the smart ones were pioneering a lifestyle of intelligence and consideration, of hunting for context to understand the tidbits er run across, to consider widely. I'd assumed networking would spawn & spread to help show the back stories of those who we read.
But today, the lack of social defense against bad and or incomeptent seems so so so resounding in the world.
https://www.google.com/search?q=wtfhappenedin1971+site%3Anew...
As we have seen, still true today.
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https://singlelunch.com/2023/09/13/the-bad-economics-of-wtfh... is not a rebuttal but a dismissal by someone unwilling to engage with the evidence.
The dude tries to clown on the idea that ending the gold standard wrecked the economy, but his whole argument is just cherry-picked stats, strawman takes, and straight-up ignoring how money actually works.
First off, he mocks the divorce rate thing like "lol goldbugs think couples fight about monetary policy." Nah, fam. It's about how fiat money led to inflation, stagnant wages, and financial stress that actually strains marriages. No-fault divorce laws came after the economic chaos started, but he acts like they are the only factor. Weak.
Then he claims the wage-productivity gap didn’t start till the 1980s. Even the EPI data he cites shows the split beginning in the early '70s. And yeah, healthcare costs eat into wages, but that doesn’t explain why real compensation (including benefits) still lags behind productivity. Fiat money let corporations and Wall Street siphon off wealth while workers got screwed but he just shrugs like "idk, must be computers or something."
On inflation, he’s like "lol inflation just exists, stay mad." Nah, pre-1971, inflation was stable and low. Post-1971? Wild swings, 14% peaks, and a permanent erosion of purchasing power. He acts like floating currencies = stability, but the "Great Moderation" was just Volcker slamming the brakes with insane rates not some magic of fiat money.
Housing prices? He blames zoning (fair) but completely ignores how cheap credit from fiat money blew up the bubble. He admits low rates jack up home prices but then pretends it's got nothing to do with the Fed's endless money printer. Cognitive dissonance much?
Worst part? He compares the site to anti-vaxxers because "things went up since 1971." Bruh. The end of Bretton Woods was a structural break. Debt exploded, inequality skyrocketed, and financialization took over. That ain't random. But instead of offering an actual counter-theory, he just sneers and says "buy Bitcoin lol" like that's a dunk. All snark, no substance. Fiat money broke the economy, and this guy is just coping. Stay mad
It is ridiculous to dismiss the gold standard thing like it’s some fringe conspiracy, saying "mainstream economists" prefer blaming oil shocks or regulations. The 1971 move to fiat money wasn't just about ditching gold. It let the Fed print like crazy, inflating assets (stocks, real estate) while wages flatlined. Even guys like Krugman admit loose money screws workers. The charts don’t lie. Divergence started right in '71, not '73 when OPEC flexed. And if oil was the problem, why did Germany and Japan handle it without wrecking their middle class?
Then there's the "women flooded the workforce" excuse. Sure, more workers can lower wages, but productivity kept climbing but wages did NOT. That’s not supply and demand, that's corporations grabbing more power (thanks, dead unions). And "household income" rose? Only because families were grinding two jobs just to stay afloat. Not exactly winning.
China? Lol. In '71, China was still a backwater. Their real economic boom didn’t hit till the 1990s. And offshoring only worked because the fiat dollar let the U.S. run endless trade deficits without consequences. Try that on a gold standard. It would collapse in a WEEK.
Oh, and the EPA? Pollution regs saved lives, and the '80s proved deregulation didn’t fix wages it just let Wall Street go wild. The real issue? Money got fake, capital divorced from labor, and the 1% hoarded the gains.
Bottom line: The so called "rebuttals" from HN commenters are a mess of half-baked excuses. If oil, women, or China were the culprits, why did everything flip exactly post 1971? The gold standard's end is the smoking gun. And the "mainstream economists" pushing these weak takes? Same geniuses who missed 2008. Maybe time to stop trusting their playbook.
As time goes by, more people seem to need more excuses to maintain a position that there was not irreversible devastating damage to the US economy, and in tandem the dollar itself. They want to believe that things like that can never be the direct result of Presidential malfeasance which can get out of hand.
If you were there at the time and had very much professional exposure to Wall Street at all, as a witness you would have observed 2008 as a non-event compared to 1973.
Without much advanced math very many people saw it coming right away in 1971 before the next logical events even began to unfold. There were still plenty of people born in the 19th century who could tell you exactly how it was going to be. They were just not the majority. The stock market did end up crashing like nothing had since 1929.
It was good to have advice from those with serious lived experiences to help navigate such turbulent times.
Meanwhile I don't see any evidence education in the past 20 years in the US has yielded a significantly higher quality and efficiency of candidate.
If you want more money all else equal you have to bring something more to the table. If all you bring to the table is being able to use a more efficient machine it's not clear why your wage would elevate rather than the value of the machine (capital) elevating. Merely having as good an education as the guy 20 years ago isn't going to cut it.
Interesting situation indeed.
Capitalism is about competition which inevitably leads to minimizing the cost of labor, and includes no inherent safe guards to protect workers other than what skills they might have. This is why unions had to be formed and is why there is the tension between workers rights and companies today.
There used to be a high $ hurdle to opening investment accounts.
The market works because all actors are buyers and sellers, and when buying, you are seeking the lowest price, and when selling, you are seeking the highest price.
If you stop doing that, someone will outcompete you by allocating resources better (absent corruption). It even applies on a household level, where if you spend extra on charity or groceries or whatever, you will have a smaller downpayment to compete for the house you want.
Also, generally, employee pay is highly correlate with the employer’s profit margin (outside of healthcare due to heavy government involvement).
Edit: Also looking for how this market theory explains absurd CEO compensation packages in a world where they quite obviously are not worth the price tag.
The issue is that everything they buy has gotten more expensive. When groceries, rent, cars, medical bills, etc all go up but wages are stagnant, people get crushed.
Some luxury goods have gone down over time, like electronics. But the essentials have all gotten worse.