If you don't mind me sharing my story, here's my take on this discussion. A few decades ago, my wife (then girlfriend) and I were raising a child at the age of 18. That experience shaped my understanding of friendship more than anything else.
Back then, I often had to skip parties or show up at events with a toddler in tow. Some friends drifted away, but the true ones stuck around. They’d hang out with us, sometimes just chilling in the basement, tossing a one-year-old on their knees, while we were all still barely out of adolescence and rocking Guns N' Roses T-shirts.
Over time, those same friends had kids of their own, and naturally, life pulled us in different directions, careers, families, obligations… all the grown-up stuff. But as others here have commented, real friendships don’t vanish. The time spent together may change, but the connection remains.
Now that the kids are grown, those same teenage friends and I get together more often. What I’ve learned is this: don’t cling too tightly to friendships that can’t adapt to your circumstances. The right people will walk with you through different stages of life. And new ones will appear when you least expect them.
Hope that helps.
mjevans · 6h ago
Observationally it's the truth. However the truth can hurt. It doesn't help with the implicit issues of few or no relationships of that quality.
My __theory__ is that relationships require mutual investment. There are few of them because it's too costly for people to develop them in senses of time/focus, money, and general effort. Society asks for a lot and affords few opportunities to connect with others.
ednite · 6h ago
You make a great point, and I completely agree that deep friendships require mutual investment, and life doesn’t always make that easy. I feel fortunate to have held on to a few close friends, but I’ve also lost many connections that couldn’t survive the shifting priorities over time.
Your comment is aligned with one of my favorite books on relationships, which I’m sure many here are familiar with: How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. It’s shaped my mindset in many areas of life, especially when it comes to building and sustaining meaningful connections.
And you’re absolutely right—modern life can be brutal when it comes to creating space for those kinds of relationships. That’s something we don’t acknowledge nearly enough.
dinfinity · 4h ago
A relevant question is: how much effort did you put into retaining the relationships with friends that ended up 'drifting away'?
In my experience, people with kids go into a black hole socially and hardly ever reach out to do something together. Said otherwise: I always have to make an effort to go visit them, they never come visit me.
To a certain extent that is understandable, but to put the moral responsibility on the childless for keeping relationships intact is wrong.
Most people who have kids actively and consciously choose for them and the consequences of having to care for them. In those cases they effectively also choose that over spending time with friends. I would argue that they are then thus more to 'blame' for friendships 'dying' (although I would just say people grow apart by choosing different paths in life, which isn't as antagonistic as using terms as 'true friends').
dr_dshiv · 6h ago
I think your attitude is great. When people have kids later in life, with all the anxieties of “doing it right,” they often think they have to stop going to parties. It is genuinely hard to prioritize your own fun when kids are in the picture. It takes work and coordination to keep partying. Parties are not extraneous — they are a really important part of our lives. Now I need to go get the bbq fired up…
ednite · 6h ago
lol...thanks for the comment. Keeping fun and connection alive during those early parenting years wasn’t easy, but we figured out how to integrate it instead of cutting it out. A basement hangout with a toddler in a diaper and a crew of Bon Jovi–style teens wasn’t your typical "party", but somehow, it worked.
And yes, agree that BBQs are great opportunities when shared. Parenthood doesn’t have to mean social exile.
bossyTeacher · 6h ago
isn't 'real friendship' a case of no true scotsman? you see friendship as a together no matter what link.
An alternative view: a friendship is a relationship where you help each other grow as people socially and emotionally. A mutual effort.
Having kids in the western world is a choice not something that happens to you out of your control. I take some issue in the way you describe your "friendship" as it seemed to revolve around your needs imo. It's fine if your friends were fine with that, but they shouldn't be described as "bad friends" just because they chose not to bend their limited time around a situation that you fully chose to be in. Not wanting to be around kids does not make it a "not real friendship". You just have incompatible values and there is nothing wrong with that.
If you choose to make yourself less available by having kids, aren't you the not 'real' friend based on your view? They gave up some of their limited youthhood time away from activities suitable for them just to get stuck in a basement. For you. You got all the benefits of raising a kid plus having friends bending to your schedule. But you didn't seem to have returned the gesture. And if you did, you didn't mention it.
Imagine if one of your friends was working crazy hard on becoming a popular musician, paid tons of money to enter a 10 year education program path and was practising all the time, and either they don't come to your social events, if they do they come with their instrument and make you listen to it or you have to come to their recitals to be able to interact with them. They could argue that you are a bad friend for choosing to see them very little or not all, but you could argue back that they made a decision to invest most of their time into something other than your friendship and their time investments are a reflection of their value rankings.
It's not too dissimilar to single parents in the dating market complaining of people going away when the find out they got a kid or people interested in dating but not in playing a parental role.
You put a price on the friendship when you chose to make yourself less available, you can't complain when people leave you if they wish to be with someone who values their friendship more than you do (ie investing more of their limited time in seeing you in ways that don't revolve around your needs solely).
ednite · 6h ago
Fair point, and yes, I agree that friendships are mutual, and no one is obligated to adjust to someone else’s life changes. I certainly didn’t expect that from my friends. I didn’t mean to label those who drifted as “bad friends,” especially knowing that I also could’ve done more to invest in those connections that were fading.
In my case, I didn’t choose to become a parent—life did that for me—and I adapted. Expecting all my friends to adapt too, in hindsight, was probably selfish. But my point was that the friendships that endured were the ones where both sides did their best to make it work. Those friends could have easily chosen the cooler parties, but instead, they hung out watching Teletubbies with us. That meant something.
I'm just reflecting on how some friendships adapt and grow, while others naturally fade. No judgment either way. Just sharing my experience. Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
logicalfails · 8h ago
This assumes the friendships were established and maintained in an environment that could potentially be friendly to kids.
If your friend group is based around hanging out at barbecues at each other's home, or more child-friendly environments, it will be much easier and likely to maintain those friendships
VS. friendships built on generally less child-friendly activities, like long-distance cycling, weekend trips to other states/countries, bar-hopping, etc...
Friendships are often built within shared social settings. Changing up the terms minimizes the very shared experience your friendship was built on
stevage · 7h ago
>Changing up the terms minimizes the very shared experience your friendship was built on
Yes, and that's when you find out whether the friendship was merely "built on" that experience, or is entirely composed of it.
I have lots of friendships that were formed in the kinds of experiences you describe - especially long distance cycling. Those people all have kids now, and we don't go cycle touring together. But I put the effort into finding other stuff to do with them, so we're still friends.
bossyTeacher · 6h ago
I think it really depends. If you decide to smoke weed 24/7, I can choose not to be around you because I dislike drugs. Doesn't mean I was your friend before. You can replace "smoke weed" with joining a religious group (be it scientology, yehova witnesses etc), becoming a hiking junkie, only having a nighttime social life, joining a street gang, skating 24/7, going off-grid or some other time consuming thing that expects the other party to make things they might not want to do to be with you.
I became friends with you. If you change yourself by making a choice (whatever choice that might be), you shouldn't expect the other person to still stick with you.
rainsford · 7h ago
I think there's some truth to that, but my experience has been that at least closer or longer-term friendships can adapt to new shared activities because you care about the people more than the activity that first brought you together.
As an example, my close friend group initially bonded over going out to eat at fancy restaurants, bars, and traveling all over the world. When many of them started having kids, our shared activities shifted more towards cookouts at each other's homes, kid-friendly breweries with playgrounds, and trips closer to home where we can rent a big house with things for the kids to do.
I think whether friends can make this transition depends on the depth of the friendship. In my case, most of the group were friends for 10+ years and done a ton of different things together before kids entered the scene, so the strength of the friendship was really activity agnostic at that point. I could see less long-lasting friendships or ones built more around specific activities having more of a challenge navigating the change.
bossyTeacher · 6h ago
> I think there's some truth to that, but my experience has been that at least closer or longer-term friendships can adapt to new shared activities because you care about the people more than the activity that first brought you together.
It really depends on the people's values and lifestyle, the nature of your change and the degree to which your persona/life changes. If we bonded over vegan activism, and you decide to become a meat eater, it might not work. We bonded over art and now you decide to go live in the mountains as an ermit, might not work. We bonded over living off-grid and now you want to move to the city, might not work. We bonded over travelling and now you can't travel anymore and are stuck in a city with a kid, might not work.
People change over their lives. Your values are not the same as 9-year old you or 17-year old you. Life experiences and choices change you. Just because I was friends with 17-year old you who had a personality and set of values I aligned with, does not mean that I need to be friends with 40 year old you. 17-year eco activist turned homebody money-obsessed 40 year old man or 25 year old athlete turned into exercise-avoidant 50 year old man.
There is no soul or magical core to like here. The only thing that links you to your past selves is a memory of shared experiences
jordansmithnz · 7h ago
The article feels shallow. It’s real but my experience is that the reasons can be more complex.
- some friends are more selfish than you realized and that only becomes apparent when they put their preferences above short term needs you have
- some parents are exhausted and stop putting in the work needed to maintain friendships
- some friends don’t want to see their social circle become parent-filled, whether that’s because they’d feel left behind or because it doesn’t match their sense of self
- becoming a parent will lead to some sort of change in worldview or who you are, and that’s not always compatible with the friends you had
- as a parent you might just want to talk to people that ‘get it’
People grow apart sometimes and that’s part of life. Other times of course it’s about harder discussions and working through things.
bossyTeacher · 6h ago
> becoming a parent will lead to some sort of change in worldview or who you are, and that’s not always compatible with the friends you had
This is it. Parenting drastically transforms you (your behaviour and values) for the next 18 years at the very least. In purely behavioural terms, you become someone else. Expecting people to hang out with a stranger (behaviourally speaking) of the basis of shared memories is odd. You share memories with your 19 year old self who would most likely be more interested in hanging around with others around his age than with you. No different for friends
Elaris · 8h ago
I really resonate with this. Since having a child, most of my time revolves around them. There’s no time for myself, no time for friends. The friends I used to be close with have slowly drifted away. I’ve been living like this for three years now, and while watching my child grow up fills me with happiness, there are moments when I feel lost. It’s like I’ve lost a bit of myself along the way. I wonder if anyone else has felt this way, and how they’ve managed to find balance between being a parent and staying connected to who they were before.
BLKNSLVR · 7h ago
Disclaimer: my kids are mid-late teens.
I can't remember who I was before becoming a parent and that has never really mattered to me. I know I spent (wasted) a lot of time gaming, nothing worth crying over, for me.
Kids have to eat your life, otherwise you may not be parenting quite as much as you should be (this means a LOT of different things to everyone).
My brother and sister in law had kids about the same time as us, so we grew together as parents as the kids grew up together.
Friends come and go and the good ones come back again. Most of my friends have kids 5-10 years younger than mine and that means we're at different life stages - I can offer them advice as to what to expect and also sort of enjoy (and lament at the same time) that I'm passed the stage they're going through.
I actually took up a sport again when my first was a couple of years old because I wanted to normalise the playing of sport. This, I think, kept me with an outlet and some socialising outside of work and family. The more strings to your bow the better (I've recently been thinking about a concept I've made up called "distributed happiness", this feels like an element of that; as long as one of those things is doing ok, then your can hang your hat somewhere at least).
One more thing I just remembered: your childhood was for you parents, your childrens' childhoods are for you. Take their wonder and naiveté as your own and see the world as they do, but with the life experience and consciousness to know how important and mind blowingly amazing it all is.
I really miss my children's childhood. My aches and pains tell me I'm too old to go through it again, but I still wonder...
P.S. play your kids In The Hall of the Mountain King. My kids danced around like nutters as it built up and crescendoed. I've got a video of my daughter saying, in a sad voice, "ohhhww", after it finished. I also have some other music I played them, classical and complex but also simple to "hear" and they really responded to it.
Magi604 · 7h ago
Any chance you can elaborate on your "distributed happiness" concept? Seems interesting.
BLKNSLVR · 7h ago
It's only something I've recently come up with since getting an old car of mine towed for restoration.
I was meant to get it back last week, but something extra needed doing. I haven't been all that proactive in following it up, and the reason is, whilst I really like the car, and I'm looking forward to getting it back and driving it (it's been garaged for six years), my happiness isn't dependent upon it; I've got a bunch of other things going on as well, such that I'm not sitting and biting my fingernails on the car being ready.
I play tennis, I roller skate and I'm learning some video editing to post outdoor trails with GPS overlays, I intentionally annoy my daughter and try to get conversations out of my son, I take my primarily indoor cats into the backyard for some rare outdoor time that they enjoy (and I enjoy them enjoying it), I have a job I enjoy with people I like working with, I try to find things my wife and I can do together (and I usually fail at that). My happiness is distributed amongst all these things. When one fails there are others to cling to. It means I don't dwell on the negatives (as much as I otherwise might).
There's always work to be done somewhere, so maybe it's distraction rather than happiness, but if it feels the same then what's the difference?
I look forward to wet weather because I can get computer stuff done without feeling guilty for not making the most of the nice weather. I look forward to nice weather because I can go for a skate or have a hit of tennis or play basketball with my daughter or just "be" outdoors (and slowly sip a warm drink).
rTX5CMRXIfFG · 6h ago
So basically, portfolio diversification but sources of joy as the underlying asset
BLKNSLVR · 6h ago
Yes, fairly precisely.
Magi604 · 6h ago
Thank you for the reply!
pmarreck · 7h ago
My kid is almost 4 and I'm 100% there.
I used to spend hours messing with code, gaming, interacting on forums, and keeping up with tech developments. Biking for miles! Sailing! Beaching! Exploring new music and always just learning. And actually sleeping in!
Now I feel like it is a huge struggle to do ANY of that... and I am still in mourning. STILL, almost 4 years later. My son also stopped sleeping through the night at 3 and he is almost 4 and it is STILL ONGOING. My partner and I have had to move into separate rooms in the house because I already have impacted sleep (CPAP) and I simply cannot function if he is waking me up every night. I already lost a job partly due to this :/
It didn't help that I had my first kid at 49, long after surprisingly firm habits were established that I feel like I am still "recovering from"
Someone gave me a piece of advice- "it goes easier if you just stop fighting it and accept it" and I'm still not 100% onboard with that LOL.
The only reason why I can even post here is because she took my son to his grandparents for the weekend, but she's coming back in 20 minutes and then we will be spending another "Family Day" at some event...
simplicio · 7h ago
FWIW, think 3-4 is kind of the low-point for this. After that, they're in school more, can independently play by themselves or with friends more and your time (very) gradually starts to become your own again. (they also become more interesting to hang out with after this age, can participate in more interesting activities, etc)
BLKNSLVR · 7h ago
Similar to the piece of advice you were given, this is one that I use, because I'm a pessimistic optimist:
Don't worry, it's only for the rest of your life.
Get square with that as your number one priority. All the things you like doing, treat them as blessings every time you get to do them. Don't expect it, be surprised by it.
Everything else flows from there. Your kids are your most important job.
akamaka · 6h ago
This sounds a lot like:
> Reason No. 3: We only want to hang out like old times
I see this happen with many of my friends who have kids. They “want to stay connected to who they were before”, as you put it, and treat it like purely a scheduling problem that they don’t have enough time to do that.
As the friend, it’s very uncomfortable be witness to this. When I get invited over, they’ll arrange to put on a movie so the kids are occupied for a couple of hours and they can be their old selves, and their new family life is hidden away as if it’s some secret that I’m not invited to participate in.
number6 · 7h ago
You will have about 4 or 5 years until they grow independent and have their own friends.
mooreds · 7h ago
This!
I'm in the middle of this path of independence with my kids and it is bittersweet. (I too felt the weight when they were younger.)
Those small, common moments of love and intimacy you get when your kids are small fade away and become infrequent. Stuff like hugs, them wanting to hang around you, them doing things with you just to do things with you. Still amazing when they happen, though.
soared · 7h ago
I don’t have specific reccomendations, but that’s a very common idea FWIW.
flkiwi · 8h ago
> "You both need to [do] the laundry, go to the bank, go to Target," she says. To make it fun, "you can stop and get a sweet treat or listen to Top 40 radio."
What on earth?
Every single expert referenced in this piece is insane.
JoeAltmaier · 8h ago
Non-parents have no clue. Example: a young friend said Let's go to the fair! OK, it'll take some assistance to watch the stroller while changing the baby, some time in the shade to feed her. Get the baby there, in the stroller. Five minutes later, the friend sees other friends, not encumbered, and See you! and she's off. Leaving me to pack up the baby and go back home.
BLKNSLVR · 7h ago
Same thing when your parents retire, they suddenly forget that anyone else still has actual responsibilities that take up about 99% of their time. It's as sad as it is hilarious.
mooreds · 7h ago
One time with we went to brunch with our small children. We were meeting 4-5 folks without kids.
We arrived at the brunch place 5 min late, thinking we'd done a pretty good job. One other friend arrived around the same time, but everyone else was an hour late. Because of the kids, we ended up not eating with them at all.
It's rude to your friends to be late when you don't have kids, but when you have small kids on a schedule, it's impossible to adjust.
y-curious · 6h ago
1. "Non-parents have no clue" is the kind of rhetoric that pushes people away from you. People generally don't like when they're talked down to.
2. You have bad friends, and generalizing it to "non-parents" will encumber future friend-making.
JoeAltmaier · 4h ago
You are a parent? Or just blowing smoke.
That was an anecdote in support of a well-founded generalization, born of twenty years of child raising.
Thanks for lecturing me on my friends and speaking style, neither of which you have the tiniest knowledge of.
This kind of know-it-all content-free post is something AI should be able to filter in future. I look forward to it.
MisterTea · 7h ago
I'm sorry to hear that but they don't sound like much of a friend.
JoeAltmaier · 4h ago
Just young, and with little self-discipline.
erkt · 7h ago
Fundamentally the lack of empathy demonstrated by your friends should make it evident that those determined to be child free are really just selfish. Why would you even want to spend time with people with those personality traits? My best friends younger brother was the first to get married and have kids. We only do things that the little dude can come along for, I can't even imagine forcing a decision that leaves them behind.
kace91 · 6h ago
Something that bothers me in this kind of discussion is the implicit assumption of “if the relationship doesn’t survive this, it wasn’t true”.
I think it’s toxic to mix up long lasting with real.
I’ve had wonderful relationships with people that worked for a time in my life, and then it just didn’t make sense anymore (drifting interests, life phases, etc).
That is not to say that you shouldn’t put effort into your friendships, but sometimes trying to artificially keep something going can be just as bad as letting something go.
OptionOfT · 3h ago
N=1, from someone who didn't get kids:
The reality is that when the interests of friends change, the friendship itself might not survive. That's ok. People change. And with that, I feel that the chance of a friendship surviving such a life-changing event is tied to how encompassing their parent identity becomes.
If their former interests disappear (the ones on which we built our friendship), and every conversation inevitably becomes about their kids, then I will take a step back.
For example: The other day my wife mentioned to me that her sister (i.e. my sister-in-law) refers to their parents as 'grandma & granddad' when talking to her in private.
Tade0 · 3h ago
> lean into communication and compassion, says culture writer Anne Helen Petersen. While she is not a parent, she maintains close friendships with many who are.
Oh boy.
When I became a father I found that some people see nothing strange in being jealous over an infant.
Sadly some of my relationships suffered due to this, but interestingly fewer than with people who really, really, really need to drink whenever we meet. Kids and alcohol don't mix.
evo_9 · 7h ago
None of this fits losing a lifelong friend that lives in another state now, which is what happened to me after having kids recently.
I suspect in my scenario it was his lack of having kids and the ability to do so (they are not able to have kids). Best I can tell is it was painful for him to see / hear about my life with kids now.
Because our relationship had become long distance it mostly centered around long phone calls or gaming / vr sessions together ever month or so. I basically stopped trying to schedule these interactions because it became clear it was having such a negative impact on his emotions. I initially tried to avoid talking at all about kids and all that but it didn’t seem to help the situation.
Anyway that’s what I just went through and at this point I don’t know if we’ll ever connect again, it’s been 6 months since we exchanged emails, which used to be daily / multiple exchanges a week.
nadermx · 7h ago
As the guy on the other side of this. I had a few great friends known since 8th grade. Once they had kids, I have nothing in common to talk to them about. Still love when I heard just a whats up. But also know feel the shift in their priorities. And also when you have all the time and have to schedule very far out to see a friend who has no time due to family, it just kind of naturally makes it harder.
kordlessagain · 1h ago
Last year, I had a newish friend with a 9-year-old daughter who, completely unprovoked, kicked me barefoot with her boot. I hadn’t even spoken to her that day. Her mother saw the whole thing.
Afterward, she jumped into justifications. She asked if I was deaf in one ear and maybe her daughter had said something I didn’t hear? I didn't hear anything. She claimed the kick happened only because I didn’t answer. The only thing she said to her daughter, who ran off immediately, was that she’d have to “work on rebuilding trust.”
This wasn’t isolated. The girl regularly told anyone who’d listen that she wished I wasn’t around. She constantly hurled rude comments my way. She had a filthy mouth too casually describing adult scenes in front of other adults like it was normal. She was in third grade. Her mother and grandmother called her a “love bug.” She was anything but.
That was a good enough reason to end the relationship.
hbogert · 6h ago
i'm gonna be a dick; I hate how some of my friends raise their kids and make their kids my problem when they're visiting and they see me as a daycare. Besides being a host I now have to take care of my friends and feeding them alcohol AND at the same time I have to correct their kids to not breakdown my house.
I'll wind down the socials with those parents who are not parenting and cherish the friends more who raise well-behaved children
mensetmanusman · 8h ago
Time management becomes primary.
If the friend is willing to also graft on to the schedule of the baby like the parents are forced to for survival, then the friendship has a better chance of survival.
Non-parents usually have no clue how big a change this time management issue is.
mathgeek · 8h ago
The schedule of a baby is short lived though and much more easily managed than the ongoing commitment of having children around. While it’s an intense part of early parenting, the following decades of having kids with one or both parents at all times is often the bigger adjustment.
SnowingXIV · 8h ago
Recently had my first son and it’s a lot of this, but mainly time becomes more scarce. I’ve got a number of hobbies but much less time to do them and less inclined to allocate to do nothing-activities, so getting a drink at a bar (which I don’t drink really) isn’t likely going to fit in nicely.
Now if you’re into playing musical instruments, hacking together a little project, or want to workout together or perhaps play a board game that’ll be much more plausible!
This was all true before parenthood, but much more enforced now. I think this is why parents often remain or develop friendships with friends and who end up having kids in the same activities.
ulrischa · 6h ago
The reason is: Kids are uncool. No one without Kids want to make compromises in their lifestlye, what is necessary if you have Kids. Having kids is not a popular life goal in our days. What popular tv show or movie in the last years have you seen with kids and families in it? Literally 0. This was not the case in the 80s.
manmal · 6h ago
Fortunately, there is Bluey. I think this show will have a more positive impact on our society, long term, than any other show.
Tade0 · 5h ago
I've found that people without kids largely can't relate, because they, ahem, don't understand how the parents can be this patient.
bossyTeacher · 6h ago
Indeed. The world's dropping birth rates should be a testament of what seems to be a nearly universal view
markus_zhang · 8h ago
It really depends on the parents. Neither of us is an outgoing person so we rarely meet with friends nowadays, considering only one had a similar age boy as we do.
johnea · 1h ago
Two parts:
1) Isn't this like the study to determine why toddlers fall down? Answer: they aren't good at walking yet and loose their balance, duh...
Obviously the time and effort of raising an infant, and beyond, cause some prior relationships to fall by the wayside. Do we really need "science" to 'splain that to us?
2) While I've never lost a relationship specifically because my friend's relationship produced a child, I have lost several because of marriage.
In my case, the friend's wife just wasn't happy with them being on such close terms with someone else. They were forced to choose: me or her. I don't blame the (ex)friend for choosing her, but I do still miss those people.
3) OK, there's a 3. My closest friendships have survived multiple marriages and children. On my end and theirs.
I feel that when you're really close to someone, the relationship will survive pretty much anything.
I would also conjecture that those friends who left the new mother "out of their plans", weren't really that friendly at all. Friendship is a two way street. If the other party isn't determined to stay connected, maybe the "friendship" wasn't as close as you thought?
nemo44x · 8h ago
Best way to keep close - have kids at around the same time. You all benefit by being able to support each other and will have many opportunities to get together.
Otherwise you’re just in different worlds with different priorities. Unless you have an affinity, like you golf together every few weeks for example, it becomes difficult.
wat10000 · 6h ago
My problem is that I only have so much energy for dealing with people, even people I like. Dealing with my kids uses up about 400% of that energy on any given day.
dingnuts · 8h ago
> Hey, these next six months are wild. Can we circle back in the middle of next year and try and get something going?
This example message is like something I'd send a recruiter, not a friend. Circle back? Six months?
WHO SAYS "CIRCLE BACK" TO A FRIEND? THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE? Are we all HR now??
Imagine you text a friend "I had to put down my dog today" and they responded "let's circle back in the middle of next year"
That would definitely end our friendship, but not for the reasons NPR thinks.
cubefox · 6h ago
It also sounds like a message ChatGPT would suggest.
scarface_74 · 7h ago
Honestly, I have caught myself doing that and my wife and friends laugh at me. I work in a customer facing consulting role so I do the corporate speak all day. If I’m responding to a friend or family member when I’m in full code switched mode, I might say something like.
y-curious · 6h ago
The bigger question: do you think corpo-speak is well-received in the workplace? Every time my corporate-trained coworker says "de-risk", "great call-out!" or "let's double-click", I find it pretty jarring and not genuine. What's the benefit of not using a simple phrase instead?
scarface_74 · 5h ago
When you hear managers, project managers, and other consultants talk like that, you code switch to fit in and show you belong in the room.
Of course it is not genuine, nothing about corporate America is genuine. It’s all bullshit.
If you saw some of my writing before LLMs existed - it’s out there on an AWS official blog somewhere - you would swear it was created by ChatGPT, it reads like all of the other generic salesy crap that was the house writing style at AWS.
Hopefully what I’m about to say next doesn’t come across as me pulling out the “race card”. I’ve hardly ever been rejected from any job I’ve applied to in 25 years as a developer and the last 5 working full time at consulting departments/companies - first working at AWS (Professional Services) and then at third party companies. So I am not claiming racism is endemic in the industry from my personal experience.
But I am one of very few customer facing, highly technical senior Black consultants I’ve come across - even at AWS I think I worked with one other person and even they were more IT focused (security, networking) than software development. I am now the only Black staff consultant out of 70 in my company. I’m not saying it’s racism - it just is what it is.
I am saying that when I am interviewing for consulting jobs, speaking to executives, writing proposals and assessments where real money is on the line, I speak
corporate as well as anyone else. I don’t get the default assumed competence as a short black guy that a tall white guy gets.
When the rest of the people talk about the concerts they went to or what they do for fun as small talk, it’s also not like I’m going to talk about seeing WuTang Clan and Ice Cube in concert.
I am going to talk about how much fun my wife and I had in Costa Rica and our other vacations we take during the year.
When I talk to the technical side of the company, I turn off my corporate speak and talk to technical.
Back then, I often had to skip parties or show up at events with a toddler in tow. Some friends drifted away, but the true ones stuck around. They’d hang out with us, sometimes just chilling in the basement, tossing a one-year-old on their knees, while we were all still barely out of adolescence and rocking Guns N' Roses T-shirts.
Over time, those same friends had kids of their own, and naturally, life pulled us in different directions, careers, families, obligations… all the grown-up stuff. But as others here have commented, real friendships don’t vanish. The time spent together may change, but the connection remains.
Now that the kids are grown, those same teenage friends and I get together more often. What I’ve learned is this: don’t cling too tightly to friendships that can’t adapt to your circumstances. The right people will walk with you through different stages of life. And new ones will appear when you least expect them. Hope that helps.
My __theory__ is that relationships require mutual investment. There are few of them because it's too costly for people to develop them in senses of time/focus, money, and general effort. Society asks for a lot and affords few opportunities to connect with others.
Your comment is aligned with one of my favorite books on relationships, which I’m sure many here are familiar with: How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. It’s shaped my mindset in many areas of life, especially when it comes to building and sustaining meaningful connections.
And you’re absolutely right—modern life can be brutal when it comes to creating space for those kinds of relationships. That’s something we don’t acknowledge nearly enough.
In my experience, people with kids go into a black hole socially and hardly ever reach out to do something together. Said otherwise: I always have to make an effort to go visit them, they never come visit me.
To a certain extent that is understandable, but to put the moral responsibility on the childless for keeping relationships intact is wrong.
Most people who have kids actively and consciously choose for them and the consequences of having to care for them. In those cases they effectively also choose that over spending time with friends. I would argue that they are then thus more to 'blame' for friendships 'dying' (although I would just say people grow apart by choosing different paths in life, which isn't as antagonistic as using terms as 'true friends').
And yes, agree that BBQs are great opportunities when shared. Parenthood doesn’t have to mean social exile.
An alternative view: a friendship is a relationship where you help each other grow as people socially and emotionally. A mutual effort.
Having kids in the western world is a choice not something that happens to you out of your control. I take some issue in the way you describe your "friendship" as it seemed to revolve around your needs imo. It's fine if your friends were fine with that, but they shouldn't be described as "bad friends" just because they chose not to bend their limited time around a situation that you fully chose to be in. Not wanting to be around kids does not make it a "not real friendship". You just have incompatible values and there is nothing wrong with that.
If you choose to make yourself less available by having kids, aren't you the not 'real' friend based on your view? They gave up some of their limited youthhood time away from activities suitable for them just to get stuck in a basement. For you. You got all the benefits of raising a kid plus having friends bending to your schedule. But you didn't seem to have returned the gesture. And if you did, you didn't mention it.
Imagine if one of your friends was working crazy hard on becoming a popular musician, paid tons of money to enter a 10 year education program path and was practising all the time, and either they don't come to your social events, if they do they come with their instrument and make you listen to it or you have to come to their recitals to be able to interact with them. They could argue that you are a bad friend for choosing to see them very little or not all, but you could argue back that they made a decision to invest most of their time into something other than your friendship and their time investments are a reflection of their value rankings.
It's not too dissimilar to single parents in the dating market complaining of people going away when the find out they got a kid or people interested in dating but not in playing a parental role.
You put a price on the friendship when you chose to make yourself less available, you can't complain when people leave you if they wish to be with someone who values their friendship more than you do (ie investing more of their limited time in seeing you in ways that don't revolve around your needs solely).
In my case, I didn’t choose to become a parent—life did that for me—and I adapted. Expecting all my friends to adapt too, in hindsight, was probably selfish. But my point was that the friendships that endured were the ones where both sides did their best to make it work. Those friends could have easily chosen the cooler parties, but instead, they hung out watching Teletubbies with us. That meant something.
I'm just reflecting on how some friendships adapt and grow, while others naturally fade. No judgment either way. Just sharing my experience. Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
Yes, and that's when you find out whether the friendship was merely "built on" that experience, or is entirely composed of it.
I have lots of friendships that were formed in the kinds of experiences you describe - especially long distance cycling. Those people all have kids now, and we don't go cycle touring together. But I put the effort into finding other stuff to do with them, so we're still friends.
I became friends with you. If you change yourself by making a choice (whatever choice that might be), you shouldn't expect the other person to still stick with you.
As an example, my close friend group initially bonded over going out to eat at fancy restaurants, bars, and traveling all over the world. When many of them started having kids, our shared activities shifted more towards cookouts at each other's homes, kid-friendly breweries with playgrounds, and trips closer to home where we can rent a big house with things for the kids to do.
I think whether friends can make this transition depends on the depth of the friendship. In my case, most of the group were friends for 10+ years and done a ton of different things together before kids entered the scene, so the strength of the friendship was really activity agnostic at that point. I could see less long-lasting friendships or ones built more around specific activities having more of a challenge navigating the change.
It really depends on the people's values and lifestyle, the nature of your change and the degree to which your persona/life changes. If we bonded over vegan activism, and you decide to become a meat eater, it might not work. We bonded over art and now you decide to go live in the mountains as an ermit, might not work. We bonded over living off-grid and now you want to move to the city, might not work. We bonded over travelling and now you can't travel anymore and are stuck in a city with a kid, might not work.
People change over their lives. Your values are not the same as 9-year old you or 17-year old you. Life experiences and choices change you. Just because I was friends with 17-year old you who had a personality and set of values I aligned with, does not mean that I need to be friends with 40 year old you. 17-year eco activist turned homebody money-obsessed 40 year old man or 25 year old athlete turned into exercise-avoidant 50 year old man.
There is no soul or magical core to like here. The only thing that links you to your past selves is a memory of shared experiences
- some friends are more selfish than you realized and that only becomes apparent when they put their preferences above short term needs you have
- some parents are exhausted and stop putting in the work needed to maintain friendships
- some friends don’t want to see their social circle become parent-filled, whether that’s because they’d feel left behind or because it doesn’t match their sense of self
- becoming a parent will lead to some sort of change in worldview or who you are, and that’s not always compatible with the friends you had
- as a parent you might just want to talk to people that ‘get it’
People grow apart sometimes and that’s part of life. Other times of course it’s about harder discussions and working through things.
This is it. Parenting drastically transforms you (your behaviour and values) for the next 18 years at the very least. In purely behavioural terms, you become someone else. Expecting people to hang out with a stranger (behaviourally speaking) of the basis of shared memories is odd. You share memories with your 19 year old self who would most likely be more interested in hanging around with others around his age than with you. No different for friends
I can't remember who I was before becoming a parent and that has never really mattered to me. I know I spent (wasted) a lot of time gaming, nothing worth crying over, for me.
Kids have to eat your life, otherwise you may not be parenting quite as much as you should be (this means a LOT of different things to everyone).
My brother and sister in law had kids about the same time as us, so we grew together as parents as the kids grew up together.
Friends come and go and the good ones come back again. Most of my friends have kids 5-10 years younger than mine and that means we're at different life stages - I can offer them advice as to what to expect and also sort of enjoy (and lament at the same time) that I'm passed the stage they're going through.
I actually took up a sport again when my first was a couple of years old because I wanted to normalise the playing of sport. This, I think, kept me with an outlet and some socialising outside of work and family. The more strings to your bow the better (I've recently been thinking about a concept I've made up called "distributed happiness", this feels like an element of that; as long as one of those things is doing ok, then your can hang your hat somewhere at least).
One more thing I just remembered: your childhood was for you parents, your childrens' childhoods are for you. Take their wonder and naiveté as your own and see the world as they do, but with the life experience and consciousness to know how important and mind blowingly amazing it all is.
I really miss my children's childhood. My aches and pains tell me I'm too old to go through it again, but I still wonder...
P.S. play your kids In The Hall of the Mountain King. My kids danced around like nutters as it built up and crescendoed. I've got a video of my daughter saying, in a sad voice, "ohhhww", after it finished. I also have some other music I played them, classical and complex but also simple to "hear" and they really responded to it.
I was meant to get it back last week, but something extra needed doing. I haven't been all that proactive in following it up, and the reason is, whilst I really like the car, and I'm looking forward to getting it back and driving it (it's been garaged for six years), my happiness isn't dependent upon it; I've got a bunch of other things going on as well, such that I'm not sitting and biting my fingernails on the car being ready.
I play tennis, I roller skate and I'm learning some video editing to post outdoor trails with GPS overlays, I intentionally annoy my daughter and try to get conversations out of my son, I take my primarily indoor cats into the backyard for some rare outdoor time that they enjoy (and I enjoy them enjoying it), I have a job I enjoy with people I like working with, I try to find things my wife and I can do together (and I usually fail at that). My happiness is distributed amongst all these things. When one fails there are others to cling to. It means I don't dwell on the negatives (as much as I otherwise might).
There's always work to be done somewhere, so maybe it's distraction rather than happiness, but if it feels the same then what's the difference?
I look forward to wet weather because I can get computer stuff done without feeling guilty for not making the most of the nice weather. I look forward to nice weather because I can go for a skate or have a hit of tennis or play basketball with my daughter or just "be" outdoors (and slowly sip a warm drink).
I used to spend hours messing with code, gaming, interacting on forums, and keeping up with tech developments. Biking for miles! Sailing! Beaching! Exploring new music and always just learning. And actually sleeping in!
Now I feel like it is a huge struggle to do ANY of that... and I am still in mourning. STILL, almost 4 years later. My son also stopped sleeping through the night at 3 and he is almost 4 and it is STILL ONGOING. My partner and I have had to move into separate rooms in the house because I already have impacted sleep (CPAP) and I simply cannot function if he is waking me up every night. I already lost a job partly due to this :/
It didn't help that I had my first kid at 49, long after surprisingly firm habits were established that I feel like I am still "recovering from"
Someone gave me a piece of advice- "it goes easier if you just stop fighting it and accept it" and I'm still not 100% onboard with that LOL.
The only reason why I can even post here is because she took my son to his grandparents for the weekend, but she's coming back in 20 minutes and then we will be spending another "Family Day" at some event...
Don't worry, it's only for the rest of your life.
Get square with that as your number one priority. All the things you like doing, treat them as blessings every time you get to do them. Don't expect it, be surprised by it.
Everything else flows from there. Your kids are your most important job.
> Reason No. 3: We only want to hang out like old times
I see this happen with many of my friends who have kids. They “want to stay connected to who they were before”, as you put it, and treat it like purely a scheduling problem that they don’t have enough time to do that.
As the friend, it’s very uncomfortable be witness to this. When I get invited over, they’ll arrange to put on a movie so the kids are occupied for a couple of hours and they can be their old selves, and their new family life is hidden away as if it’s some secret that I’m not invited to participate in.
I'm in the middle of this path of independence with my kids and it is bittersweet. (I too felt the weight when they were younger.)
Those small, common moments of love and intimacy you get when your kids are small fade away and become infrequent. Stuff like hugs, them wanting to hang around you, them doing things with you just to do things with you. Still amazing when they happen, though.
What on earth?
Every single expert referenced in this piece is insane.
We arrived at the brunch place 5 min late, thinking we'd done a pretty good job. One other friend arrived around the same time, but everyone else was an hour late. Because of the kids, we ended up not eating with them at all.
It's rude to your friends to be late when you don't have kids, but when you have small kids on a schedule, it's impossible to adjust.
Thanks for lecturing me on my friends and speaking style, neither of which you have the tiniest knowledge of.
This kind of know-it-all content-free post is something AI should be able to filter in future. I look forward to it.
I think it’s toxic to mix up long lasting with real.
I’ve had wonderful relationships with people that worked for a time in my life, and then it just didn’t make sense anymore (drifting interests, life phases, etc).
That is not to say that you shouldn’t put effort into your friendships, but sometimes trying to artificially keep something going can be just as bad as letting something go.
The reality is that when the interests of friends change, the friendship itself might not survive. That's ok. People change. And with that, I feel that the chance of a friendship surviving such a life-changing event is tied to how encompassing their parent identity becomes.
If their former interests disappear (the ones on which we built our friendship), and every conversation inevitably becomes about their kids, then I will take a step back.
For example: The other day my wife mentioned to me that her sister (i.e. my sister-in-law) refers to their parents as 'grandma & granddad' when talking to her in private.
Oh boy.
When I became a father I found that some people see nothing strange in being jealous over an infant.
Sadly some of my relationships suffered due to this, but interestingly fewer than with people who really, really, really need to drink whenever we meet. Kids and alcohol don't mix.
I suspect in my scenario it was his lack of having kids and the ability to do so (they are not able to have kids). Best I can tell is it was painful for him to see / hear about my life with kids now.
Because our relationship had become long distance it mostly centered around long phone calls or gaming / vr sessions together ever month or so. I basically stopped trying to schedule these interactions because it became clear it was having such a negative impact on his emotions. I initially tried to avoid talking at all about kids and all that but it didn’t seem to help the situation.
Anyway that’s what I just went through and at this point I don’t know if we’ll ever connect again, it’s been 6 months since we exchanged emails, which used to be daily / multiple exchanges a week.
Afterward, she jumped into justifications. She asked if I was deaf in one ear and maybe her daughter had said something I didn’t hear? I didn't hear anything. She claimed the kick happened only because I didn’t answer. The only thing she said to her daughter, who ran off immediately, was that she’d have to “work on rebuilding trust.”
This wasn’t isolated. The girl regularly told anyone who’d listen that she wished I wasn’t around. She constantly hurled rude comments my way. She had a filthy mouth too casually describing adult scenes in front of other adults like it was normal. She was in third grade. Her mother and grandmother called her a “love bug.” She was anything but.
That was a good enough reason to end the relationship.
If the friend is willing to also graft on to the schedule of the baby like the parents are forced to for survival, then the friendship has a better chance of survival.
Non-parents usually have no clue how big a change this time management issue is.
Now if you’re into playing musical instruments, hacking together a little project, or want to workout together or perhaps play a board game that’ll be much more plausible!
This was all true before parenthood, but much more enforced now. I think this is why parents often remain or develop friendships with friends and who end up having kids in the same activities.
1) Isn't this like the study to determine why toddlers fall down? Answer: they aren't good at walking yet and loose their balance, duh...
Obviously the time and effort of raising an infant, and beyond, cause some prior relationships to fall by the wayside. Do we really need "science" to 'splain that to us?
2) While I've never lost a relationship specifically because my friend's relationship produced a child, I have lost several because of marriage.
In my case, the friend's wife just wasn't happy with them being on such close terms with someone else. They were forced to choose: me or her. I don't blame the (ex)friend for choosing her, but I do still miss those people.
3) OK, there's a 3. My closest friendships have survived multiple marriages and children. On my end and theirs.
I feel that when you're really close to someone, the relationship will survive pretty much anything.
I would also conjecture that those friends who left the new mother "out of their plans", weren't really that friendly at all. Friendship is a two way street. If the other party isn't determined to stay connected, maybe the "friendship" wasn't as close as you thought?
Otherwise you’re just in different worlds with different priorities. Unless you have an affinity, like you golf together every few weeks for example, it becomes difficult.
This example message is like something I'd send a recruiter, not a friend. Circle back? Six months?
WHO SAYS "CIRCLE BACK" TO A FRIEND? THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE? Are we all HR now??
Imagine you text a friend "I had to put down my dog today" and they responded "let's circle back in the middle of next year"
That would definitely end our friendship, but not for the reasons NPR thinks.
Of course it is not genuine, nothing about corporate America is genuine. It’s all bullshit.
If you saw some of my writing before LLMs existed - it’s out there on an AWS official blog somewhere - you would swear it was created by ChatGPT, it reads like all of the other generic salesy crap that was the house writing style at AWS.
Hopefully what I’m about to say next doesn’t come across as me pulling out the “race card”. I’ve hardly ever been rejected from any job I’ve applied to in 25 years as a developer and the last 5 working full time at consulting departments/companies - first working at AWS (Professional Services) and then at third party companies. So I am not claiming racism is endemic in the industry from my personal experience.
But I am one of very few customer facing, highly technical senior Black consultants I’ve come across - even at AWS I think I worked with one other person and even they were more IT focused (security, networking) than software development. I am now the only Black staff consultant out of 70 in my company. I’m not saying it’s racism - it just is what it is.
I am saying that when I am interviewing for consulting jobs, speaking to executives, writing proposals and assessments where real money is on the line, I speak corporate as well as anyone else. I don’t get the default assumed competence as a short black guy that a tall white guy gets.
When the rest of the people talk about the concerts they went to or what they do for fun as small talk, it’s also not like I’m going to talk about seeing WuTang Clan and Ice Cube in concert.
I am going to talk about how much fun my wife and I had in Costa Rica and our other vacations we take during the year.
When I talk to the technical side of the company, I turn off my corporate speak and talk to technical.