Boring lineup, Lack of recent innovation, poor repairability and a CEO who has alienated people on both sides of the political isle. The 1 trillion dollar package the board is offering Musk is a joke. They need to find a new CEO.
raldi · 11m ago
They were coasting for a while on false promises of self-driving abilities by "the end of this year" every year and consumers have finally caught on that Tesla's not trustworthy about such claims.
jbm · 1h ago
I've generally advocated ignoring Musk, but it's impossible to defend him in good faith as a reasonable figurehead for a multinational company. His X page in particular portrays a man who cares deeply about 4chan/pol politics and very little about his car company.
If he cared at all, you'd see a better repair process with them. There is a Tesla repair hub in Calgary where I live, and I had to wait 5 weeks for them to see my car (including an un-explained situation where they bumped me, despite me being concerned about a safety issue). I eventually took it to an EV repair shop who did it for half of what Tesla quoted because, FFS, the world's most valuable auto company is "Resource Constrained" with mechanics.
Seriously, how can they afford a trillion on a CEO when they are parking expensive Cybertrucks on the front lawn of their Calgary store?
I still love driving my car (a 2019 Model 3), but I have no faith that Tesla will actually improve on it with their current leadership structure.
nofriend · 1h ago
Tesla exists to make money. Every car company in the world charges more than independent mechanics for repairs, because that's how you make money.
jbm · 34m ago
The price was not the issue, the fact that they took 5 weeks for a potential safety issue was. (In my case, it turns out that the issue was related to a torn bushing in the suspension; a common issue with a Model 3 w/ more than 100k kilometers apparently).
The fact that they took longer AND were more expensive than local providers was ridiculous, and certainly not a good look compared to my experiences at Toyota with my Sienna.
-edit- (That and the fact that they shouldn't be resource constrained when the most valuable car company in the world)
AlotOfReading · 1h ago
Unlike Tesla, legacy OEMs are prohibited from owning dealerships in the US. They make the same (or more) money selling the parts to an independent shop. They only lose out on things like certification / training / diagnostic equipment with third party shops that don't buy everything the way a dealership is required to.
The relationship between dealerships and OEMs is complicated, incestuous and fundamentally adversarial.
Gud · 1h ago
Tesla are also prohibited from running OEM dealerships by most states.
That they went with online sales only was an incredibly smart move and they cut out an unwanted middleman. I’ve been following Tesla for a long time. I made a small fortune investing in them in 2012.
The folks at Tesla Motor Club were very happy to buy directly from Tesla.
randycupertino · 2h ago
I low key have a conspiracy theory that the "1 trillion dollar pay package" is just Tesla PR fluff - smoke and mirrors to steal attention away from the poorly performing cybertruck sales and falling stock. If they spin news with dramatic flair highlighting Musk’s bonkers pay package it's a distraction from Tesla’s more immediate and tangible troubles, political alienation of their buyers and ongoing regulatory and manufacturing operational crises.
sethops1 · 1h ago
I think it's a desperate attempt by the board to get Musk to focus on Tesla again. Tesla has a PE ratio of around 230 right now. If that comes back down to the reality of a declining-sales mid-sized car company, it's going to be an absolute blood bath.
aorloff · 19m ago
Hiding the cyberflop is much easier than explaining why they have monitors riding in robotaxis while Waymo works
otterley · 40m ago
A pay package of that magnitude is a material business fact. If Tesla is lying about this, that would likely constitute securities fraud and risks imprisonment for the people involved in making it.
cosmic_cheese · 4h ago
Political issues aside, Tesla has a variety problem. If we converge the split between midrange and premium, their lineup consists of a midsize sedan, a midsize SUV, and a niche truck.
Early on this was in their favor, but with more automakers entering the fray with serious attempts to compete, they’re going to have to add at least a couple more models to reman competitive: something in the vein of a Chevy Bolt on one end and an SUV that’s the next step up in size from the Y/X on the other. A more conventional truck that more directly competes with the F-150 also couldn’t hurt.
rcdemski · 4h ago
Again, politics aside, I just find the lineup boring. Every model outside the Cybertruck looks like a ten year old car. Even the refresh of the model Y is still reskinning a design language started with the Model S, but with any interesting soul stripped out to reduce cost.
The nerd in me loves the technology, particularly behind the scenes features of the Cybertruck like 48v architecture. In the end I want to drive something that feels like it has a soul and substance. Teslas lineup right now is not that.
Fomite · 3h ago
This. None of them make me go "Damn, that's a good looking car..." any more than a number of others.
The Cybertruck is just am embarrassment, design wise.
hyperadvanced · 2h ago
OTOH, Cybertruck is one of the only original car designs in modern memory. It’s dumb as hell, but I like it. That said, I have no idea who it’s for, I wouldn’t buy one. But I respect them for designing such a ridiculous vehicle, and for it actually being able to sell, albeit somewhat poorly compared to expectations.
I say all of this as a recent $TSLA bear with a healthy short position.
adgjlsfhk1 · 1h ago
It's original in the way that a toddler drawing a car in crayon on your wall is original.
bdangubic · 2h ago
shorting TSLA is never smart because TSLA investors are not driven by any rhyme or reason. Elon is the greatest salesman to ever live and people have been buying his sh*t for decade+ now. if TSLA was a reasonable company investment-wise I would mortgage my house to short the shit out of it :)
gavinsyancey · 1h ago
Yeah -- I am of the opinion that TSLA is rather obviously highly overvalued, but the market can stay insane for longer than I can stay solvent so there isn't anything I can do to act on that.
hyperadvanced · 2h ago
Yep, that’s why I clarified that I am a recent bear. I think that in the next year funds will reevaluate them and we will see at least a 20% drop in price.
conductr · 2h ago
I kind of like it. It's one where the pictures and renderings look cool but IRL it looks like they messed it up. However, I've seen a few modded Cybertrucks with bigger wheels and tires and a wrap that actually make me think it doesn't look to bad. Concerns over build quality keep me away from Tesla as a whole, it looks too cheap to me and I've seen too many videos where things are just falling off.
protocolture · 1h ago
I love the visual design. But the performance looks terrible. Meanwhile china is making utes that look pretty bland but perform amazing for the price.
philistine · 2h ago
> It's one where the pictures and renderings look cool but IRL it looks like they messed it up.
That's because they did. The initial plan was for the plates to double as the frame of the car. That's how they could have achieved the seamless look of the renders. Turns out they couldn't make it work for whatever reason and the plates are just on top of the frame.
JKCalhoun · 1h ago
It's dumb as hell but I don't like it.
But I know what you're saying. I give it credit for being out there when nothing else in the auto industry is. Sadly though, its failure will likely further entrench the rest of the industry.
protocolture · 1h ago
Honestly I really think the winning move for the 80% of the market that isnt already in an electric is "This is your current car, but electric".
holmesworcester · 1h ago
Electric does make it pretty important that the software is unusually good for a car, though, because the software has to compensate for non-ubiquitous charging infra. Tesla does this very well. There are some quirks around charge scheduling and charge limiting that Tesla does really well too. It's not rocket science but software in most "current cars" is terrible.
stirfish · 2h ago
I wonder if the politics will impact the designs in the long run, as Tesla becomes a less desirable place to work
somedude895 · 13m ago
Less desirable for people who care more about politics than their actual work, so the exact kind of people companies like Google now regret hiring.
dzhiurgis · 1h ago
If you buy car for looks this forum is not for you.
rayiner · 3h ago
My wife thinks they all look like jellybeans. Tesla makes them like that to maximize efficiency, and they’re still #1 on that metric, but people don’t care about that.
SoftTalker · 2h ago
All cars made in the last 20 years look like that. It’s wind tunnel design, there’s only one optimal overall shape that a car can have.
hyperadvanced · 2h ago
I have seen this described as “looksmaxxing for cars” and I can’t unsee it now.
No comments yet
dragontamer · 2h ago
The new Prius has a similar coefficient of drag as a Tesla Model 3 but the Prius manages to look a LOT better.
radpanda · 2h ago
My understanding is that the Lucid Air Pure is more efficient than Tesla’s offerings, but yes, Teslas have tended to be more efficient than compliance BEVs and a lot of other efforts from legacy automakers.
DoesntMatter22 · 3h ago
I don't know the model y is the best selling car in the world so it seems like it worked pretty well
morleytj · 3h ago
Is it? I thought it was overtaken by the RAV4 a while back.
mh- · 2h ago
And if we're including the RAV4, then you probably also need to include Chevy and Ford's pickup offerings, which would also be far ahead of any Tesla.
(And yes, a quick google confirms[0] the RAV4 is ahead of any Tesla offering this year.)
Interesting. I can't see the source for the data in your link (it cites Statista, but that's just a graph and requires a subscription to see the source data.)
Not saying it's wrong (I have no idea, that's why I googled), but would be interesting to know.
edit: but also, you're right that I inadvertently looked at US-only data. I did say it was a quick Google. :) Edited my original comment.
lotsofpulp · 3h ago
Toyota has done quite well by maximizing efficiency.
nemomarx · 3h ago
I think the target audience for a Toyota or Honda (boring but reliable car) isn't very interested in the kind of quality control Tesla has. They're supposed to make up for that in other features and the unique style of the truck is part of that, in theory.
armadsen · 3h ago
I think the current Prius PHEV looks much better than any Tesla right now. (It’s a plugin hybrid not a pure EV, of course.)
cosmic_cheese · 2h ago
The current Prius is legitimately cool looking. Hard to believe it’s the same family that had been lampooned for its design for most of its existence.
neilv · 2h ago
IMHO, Toyota did an awesome job of taking the 2004 Prius funny wedge compact eco-nerd-mobile look (which might have been exactly what it needed at the time), and making it look sleek and modern and powerful.
I'm imagining a designer looking at the earlier windshield slant, and knowing they could work with that, and retain references to the iconic earlier design.
lotsofpulp · 3h ago
The people I see with Model 3 and Y are the ones who came from Camrys and Rav4.
Tesla EVs have the most data to support their reliability (at least the 3/Y), and they are clearly very reliable. Plus it costs just as much as a Rav 4, but has tons more torque. And the software is much better even though it lacks Carplay.
otterley · 35m ago
If Elon’s antics didn’t already turn me off as a Tesla customer, lack of CarPlay support slammed the coffin shut completely.
johnnyanmac · 3h ago
I don't know why we're putting politics aside. I'm sure those political escapades didn't help in cratering their stock.
All companies are trying to cut on variety right now. Of course, a software service used daily won't be hit as hard as a mid-class car company. Heck, even the affordable car companies are charging mid tier prices these days. The results are clear if things don't change.
cosmic_cheese · 3h ago
> I don't know why we're putting politics aside. I'm sure those political escapades didn't help in cratering their stock.
I fully agree, I just wanted to focus specifically on how their offerings are lackluster even if there weren’t other problems.
atomicnumber3 · 3h ago
We're putting aside the political stuff because there isn't a lot to discuss. You're either cool with it, or Tesla is completely off the table. And nobody will likely be switching camps at this point.
johnnyanmac · 3h ago
Can someone be cool with it but also admit that it definitely affected the market share? I can do that with Bud Weiser's trans campaign, even if I agree with it.
sdesol · 2h ago
> We're putting aside the political stuff because there isn't a lot to discuss
I don't agree, as we are not quantifying the emotional aspect of the purchasing process. If people "love" the brand, they are willing to overlook a lot of things. Tesla was a status symbol and is now seen as a regret purchase and a toxic brand for many (see Europe and Canada for examples). I can't see how "politics" should not be considered as it does play a critical role in how people spend money. There is a reason why a lot of companies are not open about politics and I don't think I've ever seen a CEO that was so forth coming with their beliefs as Elon Musk.
SoftTalker · 2h ago
I agree and actually think it’s the overwhelming factor. People loved Tesla and Musk until he started promoting his politics. It was a stupid thing to do as a CEO, especially for a company whose customers tend toward the opposite end of the political spectrum.
stingraycharles · 3h ago
They haven’t released anything decent since the Model 3, which was a massive success. It’s baffling to me that they’re now betting the company on robotics, rather than improving and extending their existing lineup of cars.
johnnyanmac · 3h ago
I know the Cybertruck as a "release" is stretching it, but it technically did release. Prematurely, 100%. But it's out there.
The QC on the Cybertruck pretty much shows why they lost their brand power over the years, though. Even when ignoring the politics.
masklinn · 7m ago
The cybertruck cleared “released”, what it failed is “decent”.
> The QC
Was never Tesla’s forte.
amluto · 39m ago
I’m waiting for owners to discover water damage in the equipment under the hood liner: Cybertruck’s lack a scuttle/cowl/gutter [0] to collect and divert water from the bottom of the windshield. Basically every car ever has one, except the Cybertruck. This isn’t a QC problem — it’s just poor design.
[0] I’m not sure anyone agrees what it’s called.
BLKNSLVR · 2h ago
Tesla's focus on robotics feels like Meta's focus on AR: Waaay ahead of time.
I may be proven wrong, but until then I'll point to ~ten years of FSD promises.
bdangubic · 2h ago
they are not betting the company on robotics, they just needed something to keep the crazies buying stock now that full “self” driving fantasy is over :)
CharlesW · 3h ago
The Model 3 was released in 2017 (!).
wilg · 2h ago
The Model Y is an incredible car, way more than decent. Unfortunately Elon is a fascist traitor so I cannot upgrade it, and no one else makes anything half as good.
DoesntMatter22 · 3h ago
The model Y is the best selling car in the world, so this statement doesn't really make sense
I thought the Rav4 had been outpacing it for awhile now. (Plus, that's also artificially limiting total vehicle sales which are, unsurprisingly, still trucks.)
hammock · 3h ago
> Tesla has a variety problem. If we converge the split between midrange and premium, their lineup consists of a midsize sedan, a midsize SUV, and a niche truck
I don’t know if you have checked out other OEMs lineups lately…Ford doesn’t even make a sedan anymore. That’s right. Just SUVs and trucks. And mustang supercar. Other OEMs have similarly trimmed their lineups. You can thank CAFE er al for that.
dghlsakjg · 3h ago
Ford makes plenty of sedans. It doesn't sell any in Canada or its neighbour.
Don't forget that about the other 95% of the people on earth
mitthrowaway2 · 3h ago
Article is about US market share, so it's reasonable to infer that the GP is referring to their competition in that market.
radpanda · 2h ago
> Ford makes plenty of sedans
Does it? Since they stopped building the Mondeo in Europe they don’t sell any sedans there or in most places I’m aware of. The only Ford sedan I’m aware of in production anywhere is the Chinese-market Ford Mondeo built in a joint venture with Changan.
shermantanktop · 2h ago
But what will Mondeo Man drive??
bsder · 2h ago
> You can thank CAFE er al for that.
Somewhat, but I'll blame business finance way, way, way more.
The US automakers are doing the exact same dumbass thing they did in the 1970s with "BIGGER!-shouted (and more profitable)-whispered" until the Japanese automakers showed up and wiped the floor with them.
Well, BYD is coming and is going to wipe the floor with them.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
cosmic_cheese · 2h ago
It’s amazing that US automakers can’t foresee the bubble of $70k SUVs and trucks and the stretched out loans those entail popping. It’s practically guaranteed to happen, and with how the economy has been probably sooner than later.
mlinhares · 2h ago
They never took back the market from the Japanese, so all that is left is BIGGER.
aorloff · 3h ago
Manufacturing is about cash flow
If they were not hurting super bad, they would have a factory tooling up for Roadster2
I assume the cyberflop is the missing revenue they needed to keep the flywheel going
TheAlchemist · 2h ago
This is very true.
Tesla sales growth was already slowing day significantly before Musk showed who he really is to the wider public. There was no way they were hitting their announced target - they were supposedly going to do +50% each year until 2030, and end up selling 20M cars / year. They dropped this prediction in 2024, before 'political issues'...
lumost · 4h ago
The jump between the X and Y is too big. It’s more or less a 50-100% price increase depending on how you look at it. The Y is very small for the SUV form factor, and the X is very expensive. I have to imagine that there is a market for something between the two.
cogman10 · 3h ago
The problem is that the X isn't a particularly large SUV. The X is slightly wider and about 1ft longer.
And in many ways it's inferior to the Y. Tesla's mega casting and structural pack gives the Y excellent range and a lower weight for a cheaper battery.
I think the reason Tesla hasn't done mega casting and structural packs for the other lineups (besides the equipment costs) is because it'd make them eat into the revenue of the top tier models. A model 3 cutting down several hundred pounds would be range competitive with the model S. The shorter range LFP batteries could still land you in previously long range land.
adrr · 3h ago
Still the best EVs on the market in terms of range, performance and price(in the US). Chevy bolt competitor wouldn’t make sense because Chevy couldn’t even make the chevy bolt work and stopped production 2023. EV trucks don’t make sense at all, they can’t tow unless you want to recharge every 100 miles. Also range is severely reduced offroading. I don’t get why auto manufacturers keep pushing them on the public.
Tesla has image problem. Y refresh is getting praise. Edmunds says its the best car they’ve driven in 2025. It should be selling like hotcakes. I don’t think anything is fixing Tesla unless they fire musk.
cosmic_cheese · 3h ago
The Bolt is coming back. Chevy’s reason for discontinuing it wasn’t that it didn’t sell, but that the platform was outdated. The new one is on their current platform and roughly analogous to the old EUV model.
Pricing is another question though, and no CarPlay/AA while also coming from an old guard auto manufacturer means no sale from me.
adrr · 2h ago
Normally when you have a popular car, you don't pull it from the market. Tesla hasn't pulled any of their products. Has a company ever done that? They sold it at a loss and now trying to make it profitable with LFP batteries and other cost cutting. I still doubt its coming out.
cosmic_cheese · 2h ago
The bigger problem is that the Bolt would’ve been the only model on its platform, which I noted before, was outdated and not able to handle fast charging among other things.
lotsofpulp · 3h ago
Being a GM product, the Bolt won’t have CarPlay either.
cosmic_cheese · 3h ago
That’s what I said.
lotsofpulp · 3h ago
Oops, I misread.
porridgeraisin · 2h ago
Whys that? I've never seen a car having only one out of android auto and carplay.
cosmic_cheese · 2h ago
GM stopped supporting both CarPlay and Android Auto in most of their EVs, except I think for those made by Cadillac, in effort to push customers into using the onboard infotainment where they can sell subscriptions.
I’m not sure that’s going to work out for them in the long run. Last I knew, Honda’s Prologue which is a rebadged Blazer EV and supports CarPlay/AA is outselling the Blazer.
lotsofpulp · 2h ago
I meant CarPlay and Android Auto, as GM wants to force its customers to use its software.
a_bonobo · 3h ago
It seems you don't have BYD in the US, except for buses? Here in Australia you see far more BYDs than Teslas by now. They're cheaper with a bit more range.
johnnyanmac · 3h ago
Nope, tarriffs. I'll admit that the 175% tarrifs on Chinese vehicles was indeed a Biden decision.
>Ford CEO Jim Farley admitted he has been driving a Xiaomi SU7 for six months and said he "doesn't want to give it up."
cmxch · 2h ago
The only way I’d be interested in a Xiaomi (or any other Chinese car) is if they decided to make a Ford Panther platform lookalike that has no features dependent on phoning home to China.
jbm · 1h ago
For the sake of argument, why should I be more afraid of phoning home to China (a country I will probably never go to) than phoning home to the US or Canada?
If I'm making an inappropriate joke to my wife while we drive, I'd prefer the former than the later.
(Obviously, much like you I assume, I'd rather have no internet connection)
cmxch · 2h ago
That’s by design. And people would rather put up with the allegations against Elon’s conduct over the certainty of PRC conduct.
laweijfmvo · 3h ago
EV trucks do make sense, because most people (in the US) want a truck and don’t tow anything.
cosmic_cheese · 3h ago
Battery tech is rapidly improving too, which will offset the hit to range that towing involves. Best to get the designs and manufacturing figured out to be ready for the day that battery tech arrives.
rubyn00bie · 1h ago
Lucid offers the best range of any EV. And while not really directly comparable to the Model S Plaid because it is twice the price of the Plaid—- Lucid’s Air Sapphire absolutely out performs the Plaid in every scenario. I think the days of Tesla’s dominance in the EV space are dwindling rapidly. If Lucid can get their midsized car out, at a reasonable price, I don’t see any real reason to buy a Tesla unless you just particularly fancy one. That’s not a great proposition for a company that was once considered a tech company with a huge lead over everyone else. It’s only a matter of time before the double whammy of lackluster innovation and Musk’s politics come home to roost.
AtlasBarfed · 3h ago
Yeah, because BYD and other chinese makers are locked out.
Semi-solid state is coming for Tesla's lunch.
"Tesla has image problem." You mean the multiple nazi salutes? The "don't apologize to your past" to the AfD? Being high on something on national television? Unhinged posts on twitter? Kekius Maximus?
EVs are luxury products. You can get 90% of electification with a 50-mile-range PHEV and mitigate the charging infrastructure problem. I have a used Tesla and a PHEV, and if my PHEV only had 50 instead of the paltry 20 mile range, 100% of my daily trips would be fully electrified.
As for further examples of Musk's incompetence, there should be three different badges: Tesla, an ultra-high luxury brand that focuses on traditional cabin comfort, and a low end mass brand. They should have a minivan, station wagon, an actual large SUV, a subcompact city car, a real pickup truck, a work van, and where is the goddamn semi?
Tesla should have bought a struggling auto company for manufacturing, design, and suppliers, and used that for the low-end badge and for PHEVs. Nissan would have been perfect I would think.
Tesla should at this point have joint ventures with huge numbers of electrification avenues: construction equipment, prosumer lawn mowers, "side by sides", golf carts, ATVs, jet skis, boats, if it has an ICE motor, Tesla should be expanding into it with a good name brand.
Of course Tesla solar is moribund, the solar roof is nowhere.
And if anyone claims again that grid storage will deliver some massive sales to Tesla: any success is temporary. Grid will be won by sodium ion and other grid-specific storage chemistries that cylindrical cell manufacture won't be able to compete with.
And yet another point: Tesla's cylindrical cells were an advantage ... five years ago. It's not anymore. Sodium Ion, LFP, semi-solid state, sulfur chems, all will probably be pouch. Cylindrical is basically legacy manufacturing tech.
Musk's cozying up and inevitable fallout with Trump definitely put the EV credits in crosshairs. Probably wouldn't have survived the era of insanity, but that gravy train (1/3 of tesla's profits ... at least) is over.
Finally, let's not forget the total disaster that the dry-cathode 4680 battery cell is. Basically still vaporware, and the Chinese manufacturers have better tech already in manufacture.
AND YET, I'm sure the stock will go up based on the bad news.
ncr100 · 2h ago
> BYD and other chinese makers are locked out
.. until Trump accepts a bribe or 20 .. I mean makes a deal.
Trump's net worth has increased by $1 billion since 2024.
decimalenough · 3h ago
The six-seater Model Y L, which has already been launched in China, fills in that "SUV that's the next step up in size" gap.
But yes, I fully agree that deprioritizing/stopping the low-cost "Model 2" was a major mistake. Particularly with tariffs keeping Chinese EVs out, Tesla could have pretty much owned the space in the US. (Although Elon's DOGE antics would still have alienated a large portion of the customer base.)
cosmic_cheese · 3h ago
As things stand, assuming that Nissan can manage to remain afloat, that “Model 2” market segment is going to be snapped up by the 2026 Leaf, which will start at ~$25k before incentives and is just a touch bigger than the Bolt EUV was and comes with NACS, fast charging, and a properly cooled battery. There’s little in the US EV market that comes close to competing at that price range.
Keep in mind that these things will be built in Japan and imported. I’m sure Tesla could’ve figured out some way to have an offering the same price or cheaper.
rtpg · 3h ago
> Keep in mind that these things will be built in Japan and imported. I’m sure Tesla could’ve figured out some way to have an offering the same price or cheaper.
Seeing US salaries and the strength of the US dollar (and the weakness of the yen right now!)... I wonder.
At one point I don't know how you can be competitive with factories abroad. This is where protectionism comes in I guess!
nemomarx · 3h ago
Why not produce abroad? Tesla has factories in China after all
rtpg · 19m ago
Oh sure, yeah. My reading of GP's post was that somehow they could pull it off in the US but I must have misread.
I have no dog in this fight, I trust "normal" car companies for my car needs.
asadotzler · 1h ago
It's a 6-seater, but I don't think it fills all of that category gap because it's barely a 6-seater.
All the other 3-rows have decent headroom in that last row. The Kia and Hyundai almost 42 inches. I haven't looked into the Cadillac or Volvo, but from the outside they look about the same.
All but the shortest adults and children will be uncomfortable in the Tesla third row. I'll bet it's used more for groceries than passengers.
To compete in the 3-row market, I think Tesla's gotta build something that can accommodate adults too.
leetharris · 4h ago
The whole EV market is growing and everyone is racing to buy one before incentives run out. The article is framed as a hit piece and even has political statements in it. But here is an exact quote from the article:
"Sales of new EVs jumped more than 24% month over month in July to 128,268, according to the Cox data, driven by the looming end of a $7,500 tax credit for EVs and attractive deals. Tesla saw sales rise 7% to 53,816, even as its market share fell."
mminer237 · 3h ago
If EVs in general rose 24% due to rushing to get in before the tax credit ends but Tesla—the largest seller—only saw a 7% bump, isn't that a failure? #2 GM had a 10+% bump. Ford had a 19%. Hyundai, Honda, Kia, and Toyota all rose 60+%. Volkswagen rose over 450%. Sure it's fine in a bubble, but they are doing worse than most other car makers.
doctorpangloss · 1h ago
Low baseline, more to gain.
Another POV is the measurement is meaningless, and the market seems to agree.
The auto industry is a good bet as long as you think Americans of means gravitate towards a car lifestyle, which is almost certainly true.
nabla9 · 4h ago
Tesla's revenue has been flat 3 years now. There are up and downs but it's stagnated over long term.
2022-Q3 $21.5B revenue
2025-Q2 $22.5b revenue
tw04 · 4h ago
You can only cut costs so much before you're selling the equivalent of a $50k geo metro.
When they removed the center horn and the stalks from their cars, they officially jumped the shark. But I bet they saved at least $50 per car from their costs. I still can't believe the NHTSA hasn't issued a recall.
guywithahat · 1h ago
My new Y still has a horn and stock? And while everyone wishes their car was cheaper it was a lot nicer than a mustang Mach e, despite being cheaper
jmward01 · 2h ago
I loved driving my 3 cylinder convertible geo metro! It was the 'sport' version so you could actually hit 60 if you held the peddle down long enough but it rode like it was on rails because of how light it was!
kaonwarb · 3h ago
I get your broader point; comparison to a Geo Metro is a bit much.
vel0city · 3h ago
Yeah, at least the Geo Metro had an easy to use horn, turn signal stalks, and reliably functional wipers.
shermantanktop · 2h ago
And turns out that a small torquey engine in a car with very little mass is actually pretty fun to drive! Even if you’d prefer not to be seen doing it.
OWaz · 2h ago
Also has an instrument panel the driver can easily see.
I’ve driven a Model 3 and its handling and overall feel was worse than a barebones Honda Civic. I’d say a Model 3 is on par with how a low end Chrysler feels to drive.
mebizzle · 2h ago
I daily drive a Model 3 and when I rented a Honda Civic for a trip I thought it was broken with how long it took to get any speed. You're trolling regarding the Chrysler comment lol
Why are you staring at your instrument panel and not the road? The speed is just a glance at the top corner as you should be focused on driving ;)
thfuran · 4h ago
Wait, how do you honk on a Tesla?
easton · 4h ago
There’s a capacitive button on the newer steering wheels.
brandonagr2 · 3h ago
No, the horn is in the middle, the capacitive horn only steering wheel existed on early builds of the model S refresh (when plaid was first released), but after ~6 months they added the normal horn back.
And for anyone with an S who wanted to not have that garbage? A $2k “upgrade” - only Tesla.
light_hue_1 · 3h ago
The X has a capacitive horn.
fujidust · 3h ago
Let me guess, you can pay a premium for the “old” style wheel and stalk?
utyop22 · 4h ago
And whats the real growth when controlled for inflation (price increases)?
testbjjl · 4h ago
Wonder if the end of the subsidies against a 7% increase is sales, potentially due to end of subsidies is a canary?
to11mtm · 4h ago
You mean like the thing where Telsa magically sold a not-really-logical number of vehicles in Canada when subsidies were running out there?
dghlsakjg · 3h ago
If you follow up on the story, Tesla was cleared of all wrong doing after an investigation. Tesla did sell that number of vehicles, they just were very behind on filing for the incentives, but still within the program guidelines. Once the government announced that the incentives were running low, they filed all of their backlog at once.
I love to hate on Elon as much as the next person, but everything was above board.
I think there's something else going on there, although yes, that was the statement.
> Tesla’s head of sales for Canada, emphasized in a March 28 letter that the filings followed program guidelines, which allowed post-delivery submissions despite recommendations for pre-delivery assessments.
but this alludes to something more:
> Despite the clearance, Tesla will still be excluded from future iZEV programs
Huh. Why, I wonder?
dghlsakjg · 1h ago
If you read the rest of the sentence you removed the second quote from you will see why.
It isn't a mystery, the PM of Canada and several premiers have openly stated that Tesla isn't going to be eligible because Musk is Musk, and Tesla is American.
wilg · 2h ago
"even has political statements in it" is a wild take. It would be journalistic malpractice to not mention the political context.
If your CEO bribes voters to help elect a traitorous pedophile and then personally (and illegally) cuts aid funding directly causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and all of that hurts business, that's something you have to include for context! That's some crazy stuff!
FireBeyond · 2h ago
Why are you calling this a hit piece? It's literally talking about falling market share in the title, which is absolutely accurate. Even the quote you tried to use as evidence of the hit piece says as much: "Sales rise, even as market share falls".
bilsbie · 3h ago
Battery prices have dropped so much over the past ten years. So I don’t understand why they can’t make a cheaper vehicle.
At some point EVs should be way cheaper than ICE vehicles.
loloquwowndueo · 3h ago
People are tripping over each other to pay $60k for suvs and trucks. There’s no incentive for smaller or cheaper cars as long as people are happy paying current premium prices.
tayo42 · 16m ago
Ford maverick has waitlists. Small and around 30k
FireBeyond · 2h ago
These days often on ridiculous 108 month notes. Oof. Paying $95,000 for a $70,000 truck that depreciates to $50,000 the moment you drive it off the lot and worth maybe $10K at loan maturity?
seanmcdirmid · 2h ago
Thats already happened in China. And when you think about it, it was inevitable after battery production was figured out and scaled up, and new battery chemistries will keep either allowing for more utility or for pushing price points down. ICEs simply won’t be seen as economical by 2035.
petee · 3h ago
Musk has said he didn't see a market or need for an affordable car, so any reduction in battery cost is just profit for them
ncr100 · 2h ago
Politics aside, Musk is lying there -- or at least telling some people what they want to hear while behaving differently elsewhere .. politics aside.
Tesla's received favorable attention for it's "claim" they are (were?) working on a $30k car.
And that techno-ideological claim that "all you need for self-driving is a camera" is a cost-savings solution. [ A robotics prof, ( I think at a university in Philadelphia ? ) cites a statistic that camera based navigation will succeed 97% of the time, max. So, 3% failures over all scenarios. ]
bdangubic · 2h ago
Politics aside, Musk is lying there
Musk hasn’t said anything that isn’t a lie since when I could dunk the basket (a loooong while ago)
panick21_ · 14m ago
What he actually thinks is that autonomous vehicles would collapse the car market. That's why he things that.
So literally he killed the affordable 'Model 2' because self driving would destroy 80% of the market and if that was true there wasn't demand.
This is expected. Tesla enjoyed a more than a decade long position as the leader. Even now it’s a strong pick because of the extensive charging network they built. No other company comes close, and this charging network will reap recurring revenue for them.
However the cars themselves are really shitty. I mean really bad for quality and do not offer any aesthetic value either, they appear very plain and generic at this point. I can see why people are picking other cars. Of course the whole nazi turn of their founder doesn’t help.
malfist · 3h ago
NACS is on all the new cars, and most older cars have shipped out adapters if it was made in the past year or two. The network no longer matters.
toast0 · 2h ago
> Even now it’s a strong pick because of the extensive charging network they built. No other company comes close, and this charging network will reap recurring revenue for them.
Didn't they fire the team behind the charging network a while ago? How has it been since then?
FireBeyond · 2h ago
My brother-in-law, who has worked for both Tesla and Rivian and owned a 3, a Y, an R1T, is now on his second CT, and is just as unhappy with the second as he was with the first. Creaks, rattles, things feeling flimsy or fragile.
yalogin · 1h ago
Yeah absolutely trash cars. They milked the customer for a long time with that crap. About time things changed
tonymet · 3h ago
“Tesla sales rose 7% even as market share fell”.
So they’re still selling more cars, but there’s hotter EV competition.
I thought that was the goal.
mandevil · 2h ago
It's complicated. Tesla sales rose 7% in July, month-over-month, but the expiration of subsidies hangs over the whole thing. This factor caused total EV sales in the US to jump 24%, month-over-month, as a whole bunch of sales got pulled from future quarters to the present. But because of the expiration of subsidies, those sales that got pulled ahead into July will probably not be there in September or October. This is why outside analysts expect that for 2025 as a whole, Tesla car sales numbers will decline versus 2024 as a whole. 2024 for Tesla as a whole, incidentally, was a 1.1% sales decrease over 2023. Two consecutive years of sales decline is a big warning sign, especially for a company that is considered a growth stock.
tonymet · 1h ago
I agree , but I still feel picking and choosing indicators is misleading. A story includes many observations . You did a better job
scotty79 · 2h ago
I thought the goal was to give Musk 50bln before bankrupting the company.
jmward01 · 2h ago
There is a lot of discussion of the brand being hurt, but I will say that personally I just don't want a new car period and Tesla specifically in large part because of privacy concerns. My understanding it that Tesla is one of the worst offenders in a group of massively offensive (to privacy) options. Are there actually privacy preserving options left in the market at all and in the EV market specifically? If Tesla promised, and delivered, privacy (actually didn't track) it would go a long way to rehabilitating them as a brand in my eyes. It probably wouldn't be enough, but I would at least look at them again.
petrocrat · 13m ago
The Slate truck might be the only one to have less digital tracking just due to how they are skipping so many electronic bells and whistles to keep costs in the $20k range.
LeoPanthera · 2h ago
The HN crowd does not reflect the majority of Americans, who simply do not care about "privacy", and are far more interested in whether their car has CarPlay or Android Auto - which Teslas don't.
guicen · 2h ago
Technically, I respect what Tesla has achieved, especially in terms of progress with autonomous driving. But honestly, every time I come across another report of a safety incident, it makes me hesitate. Even if it's a statistical issue, when it happens to you, it's 100%.
deemeng · 2h ago
Cars tend to be more akin to fashion than consumer electronics. People care about how it looks, interior (eg cup holders) or what brand it is. Tesla is behind here as the traditional car companies have more experience in this.
Additionally, Tesla has not materially lowered their prices or spent a lot on marketing.
bluedevilzn · 4h ago
The stock on the other hand…
nabla9 · 4h ago
Less than 10% of Tesla's value is in existing business. Tesla's revenue hasn't grown in three years
1. Car company (true)
2. energy company (eh)
3. robotaxi (next year since 2018)
4. robots ...
Google, Amazon Robotics/Kiva, Hyundai/Boston Dynamics, even Nvidia are ahead of Tesla in AI+robotics.
adrr · 3h ago
Tesla’s product is the stock.
dmbche · 3h ago
Goddamn snake is eating itself again
vvpan · 3h ago
Meme stock.
gonzobonzo · 3h ago
> Google, Amazon Robotics/Kiva, Hyundai/Boston Dynamics, even Nvidia are ahead of Tesla in AI+robotics.
Optimus seems to be much closer to actually being released as a product than Atlas. After over a decade, Boston Dynamics still hasn't shown anyone a live, unscripted demo of Atlas as far as I can tell (Tesla was showing those with multiple Optimus robots a year ago). And they don't appear to have any plans for actually selling it as a product anytime soon.
I'm skeptical of the humanoid robot market in general, but at the moment Tesla and Unitree appear to be the two companies ate the forefront of it.
FireBeyond · 2h ago
What? One of Tesla's more recent demos of Optimus literally had a handler with a remote control "driving" it.
gonzobonzo · 2h ago
This is a non-sequitur. The Optimus demonstrations so far have been partially controlled (though the degree to which they were appears to be overstated). This doesn't change the fact that they've done public demonstrations with the robots while Boston Dynamics hasn't.
FinnKuhn · 4h ago
The Tesla stock evaluation has little to do with what Tesla is delivering today and a lot more with what investors imagine they will be able to do in the future.
Based on their history I'm pretty optimistic that those expectations will not be met, but Tesla somehow still rises in value.
Hnrobert42 · 4h ago
Every time I think about shorting Tesla stock, I remember the adage:
The market can remain irrational much longer than you can remain solvent.
nutjob2 · 4h ago
It's the original meme stock.
utyop22 · 4h ago
Because Elon pulls off certain manoeuvres that feeds right into his "just trust me bro" supporters.
asdff · 4h ago
PE of 200 and the 6 month chart looks like a cardiogram. It is a very profitable plaything for the pump and dumpers. Elon included.
assimpleaspossi · 4h ago
Yes. A lot of people, and obviously some "news" reporters, need to learn the difference between market share and stock price. And that as a market grows one company cannot maintain the same market share as competitors join in over time.
mandevil · 4h ago
"Tesla is on track toward a second year of sales decline." - from the article
Consecutive years of sales declines is a situation where it does not matter if the market is growing or shrinking, it's bad for a company. The only way to grow if absolute sales go down is to raise margins on each individual unit.
"But with weakening sales and a host of competitors, Tesla has had to cut prices in recent years, squeezing its margins and worrying investors."
Hmmmm, I guess maybe the author of the article understands this better than you think?
AsmaraHolding · 4h ago
> as a market grows one company cannot maintain the same market share as competitors join in over time.
Why not? Look at Apple's smartphone market share in the US. It's been fairly constant at 60% for the last 15 years.
techjamie · 4h ago
I would say the smartphone market would be more stable in terms of market share by its nature. The only way that it would shift significantly is if there were a mass exodus of users from one platform to the other. But the vast majority of people are perfectly happy staying with whatever they have. Likewise, many new smartphone users who aren't locked into a platform yet get locked into whatever platform people around them are using.
In the vehicle market, there's a lot more competition space than just two or three brands. And just because someone is around, say, Ford drivers. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to go out and buy a Ford for themselves. Rather, they're going to buy whatever they find appealing.
sidcool · 1h ago
As usual, articles against Tesla miss the picture. Of course their share would drop as other auto makers ramp up EV efforts. People here calling Tesla cars boring and bad are missing the point.
qwertytyyuu · 4h ago
Man I should have shorted Tesla stock, but when these bubble pop is hard to predict
barney54 · 4h ago
I wanted to short the stock 8 years ago and boy was I wrong!
TheAlchemist · 2h ago
Very very risky (I'm still doing it though). Some very skilled short sellers lost a ton of money on Tesla - for example Jim Chanos - a guy who predicted the fall of Enron and shorted quite a lot of stocks that turned out trash - Beyond Meat, Wirecard, Hertz.
But he closed his fund late 2023, in big part because of his short position on Tesla. He's still a very vocal advocate of Teslaq. Feel really bad for the guy - Tesla will end up crashing, but it will take way way longer that anybody could anticipated.
more_corn · 4h ago
The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.
thekid314 · 3h ago
TSLQ
mminer237 · 3h ago
Note that you would have lost 91% of your money over the last year with this. Gambling on the precise timing of a stock crash is really hard to make profitable.
Plus buying an inverse ETF has higher fees than actually shorting it and you can't make a pair trade or earn interest on the money.
andsoitis · 4h ago
Company value is dependent on expected future profit/revenue/etc. not market share per se.
If the market grows in size and you’re able to grow revenue and profit, reduced market share in and of itself doesn’t matter.
While the U.S. market share has declined, Tesla's overall annual revenue has continued to grow from $11.75 billion in 2017 to over $97 billion in 2024, though it saw a slight decline in revenue for the 12 months ending June 30, 2025.
> If the market grows in size and you’re able to grow revenue and profit, reduced market share in and of itself doesn’t matter.
The Tesla story and its high valuation were based on the idea that Tesla had won the car market, others couldn’t catch up, and Tesla was going to be doing laps around the competition with all of their additional business lines that grew out of their class-leading EV business.
If their EV business is losing market share, that really is a problem for the narrative. They could be fine as an EV company, but they’ve sold themselves as something far more.
> Tesla's overall annual revenue has continued to grow from $11.75 billion in 2017
2017 was forever ago in technology and economic terms. The most important problem right now is that their revenue isn’t growing while everyone else is getting better at EVs.
toast0 · 2h ago
> The Tesla story and its high valuation were based on the idea that Tesla had won the car market, others couldn’t catch up
This story never made sense. They sold about 1.8 million cars in 2024 (and also in 2023), VAG sold 9 million. Tesla is no where close to winning the car market. Until recently, Ford regularly sold more F-Series than Tesla sold cars.
Sure, for quite some time, Tesla was selling a lot more EVs than anyone else. But, building EVs is supposed to be easier than building ICE cars, and some of the old guard auto manufacturers have been building cars for hundreds of years... Once they decide to build EVs and figure out the logistics of batteries, they're going to have no trouble building EVs or selling them, and then Tesla is left with the moat of the Musk Reality Distortion Field which seems to be weaker now than ever.
When nobody else was making competent EVs, Telsa's market value was clear. Now, I don't know. There are so many to choose from, but what does a Tesla give you that some other EV doesn't?
andsoitis · 2h ago
> If their EV business is losing market share, that really is a problem for the narrative. They could be fine as an EV company, but they’ve sold themselves as something far more.
Long-term growth is pinned on success in AI, robotics, robotaxis, and autonomous services.
DoesntMatter22 · 3h ago
Most of the issue is that their competitors are selling at a big loss. Ford admitted so recently and are starting to make fewer cars. Rivian and lucid are also hemmoraging money.
Without the tax credit these companies may cease to exist or stop making evs in the case of Ford.
It's likely they will have fewer competitors soon
nabla9 · 4h ago
As the link you provided shows Tesla's revenues have been flat almost 3 years now.
andsoitis · 3h ago
> As the link you provided shows Tesla's revenues have been flat almost 3 years now.
2024: $97.69 B, i.e. +0.95% vs. 2023
2023: $96.77 B, i.e. +18.8% vs. 2022
2022: $81.46 B, i.e. +51.35% vs. 2021
So flat for 1 year (going into 2024) and we don't yet know 2025 numbers, which is less pessimistic than your "almost 3 years flat".
jcranmer · 31m ago
2025 is half done, and Tesla is down about $3B/quarter compared to last year already. If that trend keeps up, then 2025 will come in around $85B or so. (Although analyst expectations seem to be that Q3 and Q4 will jump back to 2024 levels, which... really defies all the available evidence.)
utyop22 · 4h ago
Marketshare is how revenue is determined. If the market as whole grows but Tesla's share of it does not at least stay static, it means it is losing revenue.
dghlsakjg · 3h ago
That's not how revenue is determined. Revenue is determined by, well, revenue.
You can lose market share and increase revenue if the market is growing fast enough.
If you measure market share by units moved (as many markets are measured), you can raise prices and increase revenue despite lower unit sales and lost market share.
If he cared at all, you'd see a better repair process with them. There is a Tesla repair hub in Calgary where I live, and I had to wait 5 weeks for them to see my car (including an un-explained situation where they bumped me, despite me being concerned about a safety issue). I eventually took it to an EV repair shop who did it for half of what Tesla quoted because, FFS, the world's most valuable auto company is "Resource Constrained" with mechanics.
Seriously, how can they afford a trillion on a CEO when they are parking expensive Cybertrucks on the front lawn of their Calgary store?
I still love driving my car (a 2019 Model 3), but I have no faith that Tesla will actually improve on it with their current leadership structure.
The fact that they took longer AND were more expensive than local providers was ridiculous, and certainly not a good look compared to my experiences at Toyota with my Sienna.
-edit- (That and the fact that they shouldn't be resource constrained when the most valuable car company in the world)
The relationship between dealerships and OEMs is complicated, incestuous and fundamentally adversarial.
That they went with online sales only was an incredibly smart move and they cut out an unwanted middleman. I’ve been following Tesla for a long time. I made a small fortune investing in them in 2012.
The folks at Tesla Motor Club were very happy to buy directly from Tesla.
Early on this was in their favor, but with more automakers entering the fray with serious attempts to compete, they’re going to have to add at least a couple more models to reman competitive: something in the vein of a Chevy Bolt on one end and an SUV that’s the next step up in size from the Y/X on the other. A more conventional truck that more directly competes with the F-150 also couldn’t hurt.
The nerd in me loves the technology, particularly behind the scenes features of the Cybertruck like 48v architecture. In the end I want to drive something that feels like it has a soul and substance. Teslas lineup right now is not that.
The Cybertruck is just am embarrassment, design wise.
I say all of this as a recent $TSLA bear with a healthy short position.
That's because they did. The initial plan was for the plates to double as the frame of the car. That's how they could have achieved the seamless look of the renders. Turns out they couldn't make it work for whatever reason and the plates are just on top of the frame.
But I know what you're saying. I give it credit for being out there when nothing else in the auto industry is. Sadly though, its failure will likely further entrench the rest of the industry.
No comments yet
(And yes, a quick google confirms[0] the RAV4 is ahead of any Tesla offering this year.)
[0]: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g64457986/bestselling-cars...
edit: see replies, this is US-only.
Best selling in 2024 world wide was Model Y even including trucks? https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-worlds-best-sell...
Not saying it's wrong (I have no idea, that's why I googled), but would be interesting to know.
edit: but also, you're right that I inadvertently looked at US-only data. I did say it was a quick Google. :) Edited my original comment.
I'm imagining a designer looking at the earlier windshield slant, and knowing they could work with that, and retain references to the iconic earlier design.
Tesla EVs have the most data to support their reliability (at least the 3/Y), and they are clearly very reliable. Plus it costs just as much as a Rav 4, but has tons more torque. And the software is much better even though it lacks Carplay.
All companies are trying to cut on variety right now. Of course, a software service used daily won't be hit as hard as a mid-class car company. Heck, even the affordable car companies are charging mid tier prices these days. The results are clear if things don't change.
I fully agree, I just wanted to focus specifically on how their offerings are lackluster even if there weren’t other problems.
I don't agree, as we are not quantifying the emotional aspect of the purchasing process. If people "love" the brand, they are willing to overlook a lot of things. Tesla was a status symbol and is now seen as a regret purchase and a toxic brand for many (see Europe and Canada for examples). I can't see how "politics" should not be considered as it does play a critical role in how people spend money. There is a reason why a lot of companies are not open about politics and I don't think I've ever seen a CEO that was so forth coming with their beliefs as Elon Musk.
The QC on the Cybertruck pretty much shows why they lost their brand power over the years, though. Even when ignoring the politics.
> The QC
Was never Tesla’s forte.
[0] I’m not sure anyone agrees what it’s called.
I may be proven wrong, but until then I'll point to ~ten years of FSD promises.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Please consider what your commentary adds to the discussion before posting, repetition detracts from thread quality. Thanks!
https://www.focus2move.com/world-car-market/
I don’t know if you have checked out other OEMs lineups lately…Ford doesn’t even make a sedan anymore. That’s right. Just SUVs and trucks. And mustang supercar. Other OEMs have similarly trimmed their lineups. You can thank CAFE er al for that.
Don't forget that about the other 95% of the people on earth
Does it? Since they stopped building the Mondeo in Europe they don’t sell any sedans there or in most places I’m aware of. The only Ford sedan I’m aware of in production anywhere is the Chinese-market Ford Mondeo built in a joint venture with Changan.
Somewhat, but I'll blame business finance way, way, way more.
The US automakers are doing the exact same dumbass thing they did in the 1970s with "BIGGER!-shouted (and more profitable)-whispered" until the Japanese automakers showed up and wiped the floor with them.
Well, BYD is coming and is going to wipe the floor with them.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
If they were not hurting super bad, they would have a factory tooling up for Roadster2
I assume the cyberflop is the missing revenue they needed to keep the flywheel going
Tesla sales growth was already slowing day significantly before Musk showed who he really is to the wider public. There was no way they were hitting their announced target - they were supposedly going to do +50% each year until 2030, and end up selling 20M cars / year. They dropped this prediction in 2024, before 'political issues'...
And in many ways it's inferior to the Y. Tesla's mega casting and structural pack gives the Y excellent range and a lower weight for a cheaper battery.
I think the reason Tesla hasn't done mega casting and structural packs for the other lineups (besides the equipment costs) is because it'd make them eat into the revenue of the top tier models. A model 3 cutting down several hundred pounds would be range competitive with the model S. The shorter range LFP batteries could still land you in previously long range land.
Tesla has image problem. Y refresh is getting praise. Edmunds says its the best car they’ve driven in 2025. It should be selling like hotcakes. I don’t think anything is fixing Tesla unless they fire musk.
Pricing is another question though, and no CarPlay/AA while also coming from an old guard auto manufacturer means no sale from me.
I’m not sure that’s going to work out for them in the long run. Last I knew, Honda’s Prologue which is a rebadged Blazer EV and supports CarPlay/AA is outselling the Blazer.
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/joe-biden-china-tariff-hike...
To be precise, 100% on vehicles, 50% on solar cells, and 25% on Batteries.
This was frmom a year ago, though. Who knows if/what Trump added on top of that.
Bonus Article: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62694325/ford-ceo-jim-far...
>Ford CEO Jim Farley admitted he has been driving a Xiaomi SU7 for six months and said he "doesn't want to give it up."
If I'm making an inappropriate joke to my wife while we drive, I'd prefer the former than the later.
(Obviously, much like you I assume, I'd rather have no internet connection)
Semi-solid state is coming for Tesla's lunch.
"Tesla has image problem." You mean the multiple nazi salutes? The "don't apologize to your past" to the AfD? Being high on something on national television? Unhinged posts on twitter? Kekius Maximus?
EVs are luxury products. You can get 90% of electification with a 50-mile-range PHEV and mitigate the charging infrastructure problem. I have a used Tesla and a PHEV, and if my PHEV only had 50 instead of the paltry 20 mile range, 100% of my daily trips would be fully electrified.
As for further examples of Musk's incompetence, there should be three different badges: Tesla, an ultra-high luxury brand that focuses on traditional cabin comfort, and a low end mass brand. They should have a minivan, station wagon, an actual large SUV, a subcompact city car, a real pickup truck, a work van, and where is the goddamn semi?
Tesla should have bought a struggling auto company for manufacturing, design, and suppliers, and used that for the low-end badge and for PHEVs. Nissan would have been perfect I would think.
Tesla should at this point have joint ventures with huge numbers of electrification avenues: construction equipment, prosumer lawn mowers, "side by sides", golf carts, ATVs, jet skis, boats, if it has an ICE motor, Tesla should be expanding into it with a good name brand.
Of course Tesla solar is moribund, the solar roof is nowhere.
And if anyone claims again that grid storage will deliver some massive sales to Tesla: any success is temporary. Grid will be won by sodium ion and other grid-specific storage chemistries that cylindrical cell manufacture won't be able to compete with.
And yet another point: Tesla's cylindrical cells were an advantage ... five years ago. It's not anymore. Sodium Ion, LFP, semi-solid state, sulfur chems, all will probably be pouch. Cylindrical is basically legacy manufacturing tech.
Musk's cozying up and inevitable fallout with Trump definitely put the EV credits in crosshairs. Probably wouldn't have survived the era of insanity, but that gravy train (1/3 of tesla's profits ... at least) is over.
Finally, let's not forget the total disaster that the dry-cathode 4680 battery cell is. Basically still vaporware, and the Chinese manufacturers have better tech already in manufacture.
AND YET, I'm sure the stock will go up based on the bad news.
.. until Trump accepts a bribe or 20 .. I mean makes a deal.
Trump's net worth has increased by $1 billion since 2024.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_Y_L
But yes, I fully agree that deprioritizing/stopping the low-cost "Model 2" was a major mistake. Particularly with tariffs keeping Chinese EVs out, Tesla could have pretty much owned the space in the US. (Although Elon's DOGE antics would still have alienated a large portion of the customer base.)
Keep in mind that these things will be built in Japan and imported. I’m sure Tesla could’ve figured out some way to have an offering the same price or cheaper.
Seeing US salaries and the strength of the US dollar (and the weakness of the yen right now!)... I wonder.
At one point I don't know how you can be competitive with factories abroad. This is where protectionism comes in I guess!
I have no dog in this fight, I trust "normal" car companies for my car needs.
All the other 3-rows have decent headroom in that last row. The Kia and Hyundai almost 42 inches. I haven't looked into the Cadillac or Volvo, but from the outside they look about the same.
All but the shortest adults and children will be uncomfortable in the Tesla third row. I'll bet it's used more for groceries than passengers.
To compete in the 3-row market, I think Tesla's gotta build something that can accommodate adults too.
"Sales of new EVs jumped more than 24% month over month in July to 128,268, according to the Cox data, driven by the looming end of a $7,500 tax credit for EVs and attractive deals. Tesla saw sales rise 7% to 53,816, even as its market share fell."
Another POV is the measurement is meaningless, and the market seems to agree.
The auto industry is a good bet as long as you think Americans of means gravitate towards a car lifestyle, which is almost certainly true.
When they removed the center horn and the stalks from their cars, they officially jumped the shark. But I bet they saved at least $50 per car from their costs. I still can't believe the NHTSA hasn't issued a recall.
I’ve driven a Model 3 and its handling and overall feel was worse than a barebones Honda Civic. I’d say a Model 3 is on par with how a low end Chrysler feels to drive.
Why are you staring at your instrument panel and not the road? The speed is just a glance at the top corner as you should be focused on driving ;)
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-DEB259C...
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/models/en_us/GUID-DEB259C...
I love to hate on Elon as much as the next person, but everything was above board.
https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/canada-clears-tesla-in-izev...
> Tesla’s head of sales for Canada, emphasized in a March 28 letter that the filings followed program guidelines, which allowed post-delivery submissions despite recommendations for pre-delivery assessments.
but this alludes to something more:
> Despite the clearance, Tesla will still be excluded from future iZEV programs
Huh. Why, I wonder?
It isn't a mystery, the PM of Canada and several premiers have openly stated that Tesla isn't going to be eligible because Musk is Musk, and Tesla is American.
If your CEO bribes voters to help elect a traitorous pedophile and then personally (and illegally) cuts aid funding directly causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and all of that hurts business, that's something you have to include for context! That's some crazy stuff!
At some point EVs should be way cheaper than ICE vehicles.
Tesla's received favorable attention for it's "claim" they are (were?) working on a $30k car.
And that techno-ideological claim that "all you need for self-driving is a camera" is a cost-savings solution. [ A robotics prof, ( I think at a university in Philadelphia ? ) cites a statistic that camera based navigation will succeed 97% of the time, max. So, 3% failures over all scenarios. ]
Musk hasn’t said anything that isn’t a lie since when I could dunk the basket (a loooong while ago)
So literally he killed the affordable 'Model 2' because self driving would destroy 80% of the market and if that was true there wasn't demand.
So he decided to only focus on 'RoboTaxi'.
https://assets.msn.com/content/view/v2/Detail/en-in/AA1M6lm4...
However the cars themselves are really shitty. I mean really bad for quality and do not offer any aesthetic value either, they appear very plain and generic at this point. I can see why people are picking other cars. Of course the whole nazi turn of their founder doesn’t help.
Didn't they fire the team behind the charging network a while ago? How has it been since then?
So they’re still selling more cars, but there’s hotter EV competition.
I thought that was the goal.
Additionally, Tesla has not materially lowered their prices or spent a lot on marketing.
Optimus seems to be much closer to actually being released as a product than Atlas. After over a decade, Boston Dynamics still hasn't shown anyone a live, unscripted demo of Atlas as far as I can tell (Tesla was showing those with multiple Optimus robots a year ago). And they don't appear to have any plans for actually selling it as a product anytime soon.
I'm skeptical of the humanoid robot market in general, but at the moment Tesla and Unitree appear to be the two companies ate the forefront of it.
Based on their history I'm pretty optimistic that those expectations will not be met, but Tesla somehow still rises in value.
The market can remain irrational much longer than you can remain solvent.
Consecutive years of sales declines is a situation where it does not matter if the market is growing or shrinking, it's bad for a company. The only way to grow if absolute sales go down is to raise margins on each individual unit.
"But with weakening sales and a host of competitors, Tesla has had to cut prices in recent years, squeezing its margins and worrying investors."
Hmmmm, I guess maybe the author of the article understands this better than you think?
Why not? Look at Apple's smartphone market share in the US. It's been fairly constant at 60% for the last 15 years.
In the vehicle market, there's a lot more competition space than just two or three brands. And just because someone is around, say, Ford drivers. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to go out and buy a Ford for themselves. Rather, they're going to buy whatever they find appealing.
But he closed his fund late 2023, in big part because of his short position on Tesla. He's still a very vocal advocate of Teslaq. Feel really bad for the guy - Tesla will end up crashing, but it will take way way longer that anybody could anticipated.
Plus buying an inverse ETF has higher fees than actually shorting it and you can't make a pair trade or earn interest on the money.
If the market grows in size and you’re able to grow revenue and profit, reduced market share in and of itself doesn’t matter.
While the U.S. market share has declined, Tesla's overall annual revenue has continued to grow from $11.75 billion in 2017 to over $97 billion in 2024, though it saw a slight decline in revenue for the 12 months ending June 30, 2025.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/TSLA/tesla/revenue
The Tesla story and its high valuation were based on the idea that Tesla had won the car market, others couldn’t catch up, and Tesla was going to be doing laps around the competition with all of their additional business lines that grew out of their class-leading EV business.
If their EV business is losing market share, that really is a problem for the narrative. They could be fine as an EV company, but they’ve sold themselves as something far more.
> Tesla's overall annual revenue has continued to grow from $11.75 billion in 2017
2017 was forever ago in technology and economic terms. The most important problem right now is that their revenue isn’t growing while everyone else is getting better at EVs.
This story never made sense. They sold about 1.8 million cars in 2024 (and also in 2023), VAG sold 9 million. Tesla is no where close to winning the car market. Until recently, Ford regularly sold more F-Series than Tesla sold cars.
Sure, for quite some time, Tesla was selling a lot more EVs than anyone else. But, building EVs is supposed to be easier than building ICE cars, and some of the old guard auto manufacturers have been building cars for hundreds of years... Once they decide to build EVs and figure out the logistics of batteries, they're going to have no trouble building EVs or selling them, and then Tesla is left with the moat of the Musk Reality Distortion Field which seems to be weaker now than ever.
When nobody else was making competent EVs, Telsa's market value was clear. Now, I don't know. There are so many to choose from, but what does a Tesla give you that some other EV doesn't?
Long-term growth is pinned on success in AI, robotics, robotaxis, and autonomous services.
Without the tax credit these companies may cease to exist or stop making evs in the case of Ford.
It's likely they will have fewer competitors soon
2024: $97.69 B, i.e. +0.95% vs. 2023
2023: $96.77 B, i.e. +18.8% vs. 2022
2022: $81.46 B, i.e. +51.35% vs. 2021
So flat for 1 year (going into 2024) and we don't yet know 2025 numbers, which is less pessimistic than your "almost 3 years flat".
You can lose market share and increase revenue if the market is growing fast enough.
If you measure market share by units moved (as many markets are measured), you can raise prices and increase revenue despite lower unit sales and lost market share.