Here's an interesting, related European history tidbit;
Most of the popular old school European Comics are from Belgium; Tintin, The Smurfs, Asterix, Lucky-Luke, etc. That doesn't mean they were all made by Belgians, there were French and Italian authors.
The reason they were based in Belgium, is because American Comic books where banned in Belgium. This is an artefact from the second world war, the American comic books were banned by the nazis. But the after-war catholic government kept the policy going for a while. In other countries, the market was flooded with American comics such as Picsou Magazine, so there were little room for other kind of comics. The Belgian market, while small, was enough to give an audience and thus work for Non-American comic authors. The ban didn't last long, but was enough to kickstart an entire industry that would eventually get good enough to compete on its own.
This fact is little documented, I learned it while studying comic book drawing in Belgium. The teacher was then complaining about the flood of Japanese Manga, which in his opinion would kill the European comic industry, as they were subsidised by a captive Japanese audience. Much of the cultural industry in France now only survives because of laws mandating that at least half the products sold must be French. And so is it with other European countries. But unfortunately those very same laws are preventing the growth of a pan European industry.
ho_schi · 17m ago
How about regulating Big Tech? Which was done with AT&T before Reagan and caused UNIX, C, Open-Source and Open-Documentation.
And encouraging and requiring open-source software development in Europe, founded by non-profit organizations and government. With requirements and control. The base for solution is readily available with Linux and BSD. Our politicians and CEOs only think in short terms. As consumers do :(
We can ban or tax things, like shipping Laptops with proprietary operating-systems. Declare, that the pre-installed operating-system must be open-source with {GPL, MIT, BSD} and fulfill standards. If not? Fine. Ship it without an operating-system.
And teach kids at school about scale of software and vendor lock-in. Every monopoly starts with being lazy and just grasping the first solution...
ecb_penguin · 11m ago
Literally no to all of this. All these bad ideas are exactly why Europe can't compete. You bring no positive ideas except requiring exactly what YOU want, and if you can't, then tax or ban it.
Stop looking for the nanny to take care of you, because this anti-consumer, anti-business viewpoint will help noone.
intellectronica · 33m ago
Bannig things as a default solution to everything is what got Europe in trouble in the first place. Zero-sum, back-to-the-trees mentality.
moomin · 23m ago
I never understand this idea that Europe is somehow in a bad place compared to America. Go ask people, it’s really not.
ews · 18m ago
I am originally from Europe and I must ask : how many startups of global reach has Europe produced in the last 30 years compared to the US as a whole (or even just the SF Bay Area). What is Europe doing in AI compared to the US or China?
plantwallshoe · 13m ago
How has living in the same country as a crop of successful tech startups made the lives of an average American noticeably better?
slowmovintarget · 2m ago
That's a non-sequitur.
Achieving Euro-Big-Tech for social media and AI would not improve European's lives either, except for the few oligarchs that would run the equivalent corporate giants there.
I can't help hearing Bender's voice after getting kicked out of the Casino...
mertbio · 10m ago
Why do you think that Europe has to race with the US in number of startups? Shouldn’t we focus on the quality of life instead?
The rich people in the US have lower life expectancy than the poor people in Europe. People in Europe are also happier than the ones in the US. What those startups will bring?
ramblerman · 9m ago
I am originally from Europe as well. And still living there (not sure if that’s why you phrased it like that) but how many innovations from the us are really adding to the value of life vs just forcing eyeballs to screen.
Linux came from Europe. A lot of open source does, see blender.
I know VC money is sexy but does it add real value
Ralfp · 7m ago
Ask your uncle who lives in old country, what he values more. EU-developed startups or universal healthcare that cured his child without bankrupting his household?
15155 · 13m ago
Invariably someone will roll in and say "ASML" (despite this being a US-financed venture.)
pj_mukh · 6m ago
Controversial opinion: Strip out the colonial wealth compounded, Europe may look like South America in terms of Economic and Exportative output over the last 50 years.
I have seen no evidence that European states would’ve developed the comfortable pace of work, welfare state, retirement and vacation systems independent of their amassed colonial wealth.
ITB · 20m ago
Bad place to build successful companies compared to America.
ryandrake · 14m ago
Who cares?
I’m really, really starting to question how much of an Ultimate Flex “good for companies” is, when it comes at the expense of: standard of living, worker’s rights, privacy, a safety net, and everything else America lacks due to its single minded focus on being “good for business.”
ecb_penguin · 7m ago
> Who cares?
Me, who enjoys higher salaries, more jobs, better benefits, better healthcare, better schools, more diversity, and higher purchasing power.
Also it's more fun to work for US tech companies than Nokia :).
dragonwriter · 12m ago
> Who cares?
Capitalists (the class, and the ideological faction devoted to promoting the interests of that class.)
djaychela · 19m ago
I think it might depend on how you define success?
davkan · 10m ago
Profit for the founders and the shareholders is the only definition anyone cares about in the states.
The idea that a business could be considered successful by just providing a living wage for its owners and employees or contributing to the community is not a consideration.
People in this country see a single person startup making a few million dollars to be a greater success story than providing for the lives and well being of 20 employees for a decade.
spacebeer · 30m ago
It worked for China, when they banned or restricted what Google, MS, Apple, Facebook can do there
moomin · 24m ago
And clearly some people believe it will work for America, given the TikTok ban.
rrr_oh_man · 13m ago
A ban that is not being enforced or complied with is not a ban.
ronsor · 25m ago
China did it early and made growing their domestic industry a priority. Europe has not. This is like trying to close the gate after the horse has already escaped.
spacebeer · 22m ago
So not just EU, but any other region in the world, like Africa, South America, Central Asia should just give up and not try to make a business that could disrupt existing giants?
togetheragainor · 19m ago
They should try fostering more competence and competitiveness, rather than trying to regulate themselves to success.
ClumsyPilot · 16m ago
Most US industries are owned by 1/2/3 oligopolies.
The only way to compete is to create your own monopolies.
No comments yet
michaelscott · 19m ago
They can, but OP's point is that a ban on US tech on its own will do nothing to produce a local Silicon Valley. It needs to go hand in hand with a massive push toward local entrepreneurial support, especially in places like Europe where the government exercises more control through legislation
ryandrake · 10m ago
I don’t think you really need to incentivize businesses. If people want to start a business, they’re going to start one, regardless of whatever carrot you throw in front of them. “I’d love to start a business and make a profit, but the government just isn’t giving me enough incentive!” - said nobody ever.
apwell23 · 23m ago
why do they not twist themselves into frenzy like they do in usa if someone proposes protectionist policies.
Trump is like europe lite
ClumsyPilot · 18m ago
The greatest lie in the world is that US Gov. wants free market.
It has spent the last 10 years lobbying EU to ban Huawei, Chinese electric cars, Tiktok, etc.. It has banned foreign ships from travelling between US ports, a deal by Japan's Nippon Steel, imposed 300% tax on Bombardier, and imprisoned French executives until they agreed to sell a division of Alstom to GE.
This is why I support Trump as a European - at least he is upfront about the racket he is running. If the pretence cannot be maintained, our politicians will be forced to respond.
Klonoar · 9m ago
You do know you can acknowledge the supposed effect Trump would have on the EU without supporting him, right?
joules77 · 50m ago
Chinese tech is possible cause Chinese cash is parked in China.
Meanwhile most European cash (from pension funds, wealth funds, banks etc) flows into Wall St indirectly funding Big Tech/SV etc.
ojbyrne · 23m ago
The fact that the us$ has dropped 15% vs the Euro in the last 6 months suggest that won’t necessarily hold forever.
moomin · 25m ago
You need to spend more time looking at your suppliers when they come from politically unstable regimes. That’s international procurement 101. The only real argument is about what, economically and practically, can be done about it.
slowmovintarget · 6m ago
> Van der Sloot: “We now see the political interference by Russia and by Big Tech itself in elections in Europe, the rise of AI, and the fact that Europe is totally dependent on America in this context. In my opinion, the only way to protect our European values is to ban all American technology in Europe within five years, not only for consumers but also for government authorities and companies. At the same time, we need to bridge the technological gap because we remain vulnerable as long as we are dependent on foreign technology.”
So bog standard protectionism is what he's advocating for. He should have a discussion with economists as he's making assumptions outside his expertise, I suspect.
mihaaly · 28m ago
More and bigger isolationism and forcing a model that worked in very different circumstances (legal, financial, cultural) does not sound smart.
bambax · 28m ago
> If we take the influence in the field of politics and human and privacy rights truly seriously, a ban on American tech in Europe is crucial, according to this scholar. In addition, we must work to create a European Big Tech industry.
This is inconsistent. If Europe must ban American Big Tech because of human and privacy rights (something I tend to agree with) then it should not create anything in its stead, and actively prevent a European Silicon Valley from ever happening.
It's extremely unlikely European business people are better than Americans. Once they become powerful enough, chances are they will be even more evil.
alibarber · 11m ago
Indeed - it reminds me of a story I heard about potential Lithium deposits being found in Sweden. Initially this would be a good thing because it would help Europeans build and drive more electric cars which are a good thing because they are less polluting and rely less on oil from unstable places.
Of course, it was swiftly pointed out that it would be impossible to mine it and meet the stringent environmental standards that we have in Europe, because we're good and care for the world.
Fine to trash the environment in China though.
Similarly, hands have been wrung in Finland because they banned importing Russian timber for obvious reasons, but this meant potentialy cutting down more Finnish wood and failing to meet environmental obligations. Aparently if you cut down trees a bit to the East it's ok for the environment.
brookst · 24m ago
It’s the classic “we must regulate pi=3” problem. They want the benefits of the tech without the capitalistic intent or unwanted side effects.
The European regulatory regime is specifically designed to prioritize social welfare (as defined by regulators) over technological advance. Just look at Spotify: technically stagnant, but a lobbying and regulatory powerhouse.
anonnon · 17m ago
> If Europe must ban American Big Tech because of human and privacy rights
Isn't the EU currently trying to force encryption back-doors?
xyzzy9563 · 12m ago
Europe is lucky we don't consider the entire western half to be a U.S. territory after WW2.
anonnon · 13m ago
Sounds like a great way to turn public opinion in the US against continued US participation in NATO.
rvnx · 1h ago
As a first step we should make visas more selective for troublemakers and easier to obtain for highly educated people
john01dav · 35m ago
As part of making visas easier for educated people, make them less restrictive. I have looked into moving to various European countries with my programming skills, but unless I'm already at the top of my field I'm tied to a job for years and prohibited from starting my own business. To me, this isn't worth it. Also, I don't see a strong reason for that restriction -- startups are exactly what they need.
alibarber · 18m ago
With all due respect, there's not a huge shortage of programmers in Europe.
What is needed is capital, world leading expertise (yes, top of the field - the people who can command the famous $100M sign on bonuses we hear about), and more risk appetite. If you were, say, an investor ready to fund and grow companies with ready captial, I think your options would be more open.
bootsmann · 44s ago
Europe has lots of capital but when it comes to capital “Europe” is not a singular entity. Its surprisingly difficult for a fund in country A to invest in a privately held company of country B. The whole thing about the lack of big tech in Europe is partially caused by this fragmentation. In areas where the EU broke down those barriers (such as manufacturing) Europe is significantly more competitive than the US.
alexey-salmin · 2m ago
There kind of is, in my view. It's easier for me to hire and relocate an engineer from Eastern Europe than from France where I'm based now.
Most baffling to me are the 25 y.o. graduates of engineering universities who can't write five lines of code in a programming language of their choice. All right you want to be a developer, where the hell have you been all these years? You can get to the senior level by that age, let alone learn one programming language.
michaelscott · 15m ago
There is plenty of capital (eye watering amounts in most family offices in fact) and world leading expertise in many fields across Europe. The only factor here is more risk appetite and a culture for that risk in an effort to push industry forward. Europe is incredibly risk averse and is more interested in capital preservation than growth
alexey-salmin · 26m ago
French Passeport Talent is quite good. Most types aren't tied to the employer and last 4 years. There's the "Création d’entreprise" option that allows creation of a company but it requires you to invest 30k euros into it.
michaelscott · 26m ago
I've been in exactly this position and it's honestly insane, assuming Europe is actually interested in promoting startup growth. It's simply not set up from a legislative position to be able to compete with the US or China
Klonoar · 5m ago
I mean the Netherlands basically voids all your issues here via the DAFT treaty. It’s also a well known visa avenue so I feel like you may not have looked hard enough.
You’re tied to the Netherlands specifically for a few years, but that’s about the only knock I can see.
alibarber · 30m ago
What is Europe offering those we need? Lower salary and more taxes?
The first thing that springs off everyone's lips is 'healthcare' but the types of people we need aren't exactly going to struggle to afford higher quality than most public services here, wherever else they are.
dvdkon · 12m ago
Less mad political culture? Walkable cities? A nicer place to live for your less-wealthy neighbours? I can't think of much else that would impress a rich or soon-to-be-rich person from the US especially.
And I don't think offering anything more is a good idea. There's little else a wealthy person can't already just buy in another country, except for maybe looser labour and environmental regulations, and I certainly don't want that.
can16358p · 31m ago
I have no sympathy for US, and I know I'm going to be downvoted to hell from EU-conservatists, though: Don't expect anything comparable to US big tech with all those innovation-stifling regulations that EU has.
If Europe wants to do anything that can compete with US big tech, they should get rid of those regulations first.
hugs · 28m ago
have a specific regulation in mind?
brookst · 21m ago
Not the person you’re replying to, but the main problem is the “thought that counts” approach. The EU gives you regulations about spirit and intent, and the only way you know if you’re in compliance is either getting fined after the fact or spending many millions of dollars engaging regulators to negotiate features before the ship, and even if you have the time and money to do that, their recommendations aren’t binding (they can still fine you).
It creates a better-safe-than-sorry culture where companies would be crazy to take huge financial risks to ship advanced tech in a market that’s about 15% of the world.
can16358p · 9m ago
Basically everything around data in EU. Make one small "mistake" (which would be perfectly OK in SV) and you're done: millions in fines so you either go bankrupt or go to jail. Almost no one, naturally, wants to take risk.
convolvatron · 28m ago
can we build software and services without mining people’s identities? it just won’t be as profitable, and frankly a lot of the innovation is consumer hostile. it’s certainly worth trying to dont you think?
vmg12 · 9m ago
Every rule added is another rule that people that create things need to keep in mind. The rules are complex and the meaning of the rules are up for debate. Add enough rules and the only people that can build things are people with teams of lawyers.
Always when these rules are proposed big tech companies are used as scapegoats and any consideration of the fact that the rules affect everyone and restrict the freedom of everyone is brushed aside.
spacebeer · 25m ago
There are good people making good software all over the world. We just need to start using it more instead of this crap being thrown at us by big tech
can16358p · 6m ago
Sure, I'd love to use an open source model locally that's trained on fully ethically-sourced data... once it's on par with ChatGPT or Sonnet.
For now, that "crap" big tech throws at us outperforms the "non-crap".
I'd love to see competition though, K2 is a nice step.
can16358p · 11m ago
It means less data, and let's be realistic, under otherwise equal conditions, means less-accurate inference.
One can try it, but it will never be a fair game.
apwell23 · 21m ago
one of my friends claims his career would be at a different place if he had played politics and back stabbed his coworkers.
I don't know what to make of that.
deadbabe · 17m ago
If you want a European Silicon Valley, you need American style values.
European investors are risk averse cowards who could never imagine putting down vast sums of money for pre-revenue, pre-profit type companies. That’s why you never get the big wins, and why you’ll never attract the big winners. They’ll just go to America.
DataDaemon · 27m ago
I can't wait for another startup attaching caps to bottles
anticomp2345 · 25m ago
Then America must ban and tariff anticompetitive Europe.
Most of the popular old school European Comics are from Belgium; Tintin, The Smurfs, Asterix, Lucky-Luke, etc. That doesn't mean they were all made by Belgians, there were French and Italian authors.
The reason they were based in Belgium, is because American Comic books where banned in Belgium. This is an artefact from the second world war, the American comic books were banned by the nazis. But the after-war catholic government kept the policy going for a while. In other countries, the market was flooded with American comics such as Picsou Magazine, so there were little room for other kind of comics. The Belgian market, while small, was enough to give an audience and thus work for Non-American comic authors. The ban didn't last long, but was enough to kickstart an entire industry that would eventually get good enough to compete on its own.
This fact is little documented, I learned it while studying comic book drawing in Belgium. The teacher was then complaining about the flood of Japanese Manga, which in his opinion would kill the European comic industry, as they were subsidised by a captive Japanese audience. Much of the cultural industry in France now only survives because of laws mandating that at least half the products sold must be French. And so is it with other European countries. But unfortunately those very same laws are preventing the growth of a pan European industry.
And encouraging and requiring open-source software development in Europe, founded by non-profit organizations and government. With requirements and control. The base for solution is readily available with Linux and BSD. Our politicians and CEOs only think in short terms. As consumers do :(
We can ban or tax things, like shipping Laptops with proprietary operating-systems. Declare, that the pre-installed operating-system must be open-source with {GPL, MIT, BSD} and fulfill standards. If not? Fine. Ship it without an operating-system.
And teach kids at school about scale of software and vendor lock-in. Every monopoly starts with being lazy and just grasping the first solution...
Stop looking for the nanny to take care of you, because this anti-consumer, anti-business viewpoint will help noone.
Achieving Euro-Big-Tech for social media and AI would not improve European's lives either, except for the few oligarchs that would run the equivalent corporate giants there.
I can't help hearing Bender's voice after getting kicked out of the Casino...
The rich people in the US have lower life expectancy than the poor people in Europe. People in Europe are also happier than the ones in the US. What those startups will bring?
Linux came from Europe. A lot of open source does, see blender.
I know VC money is sexy but does it add real value
I have seen no evidence that European states would’ve developed the comfortable pace of work, welfare state, retirement and vacation systems independent of their amassed colonial wealth.
I’m really, really starting to question how much of an Ultimate Flex “good for companies” is, when it comes at the expense of: standard of living, worker’s rights, privacy, a safety net, and everything else America lacks due to its single minded focus on being “good for business.”
Me, who enjoys higher salaries, more jobs, better benefits, better healthcare, better schools, more diversity, and higher purchasing power.
Also it's more fun to work for US tech companies than Nokia :).
Capitalists (the class, and the ideological faction devoted to promoting the interests of that class.)
The idea that a business could be considered successful by just providing a living wage for its owners and employees or contributing to the community is not a consideration.
People in this country see a single person startup making a few million dollars to be a greater success story than providing for the lives and well being of 20 employees for a decade.
No comments yet
Trump is like europe lite
It has spent the last 10 years lobbying EU to ban Huawei, Chinese electric cars, Tiktok, etc.. It has banned foreign ships from travelling between US ports, a deal by Japan's Nippon Steel, imposed 300% tax on Bombardier, and imprisoned French executives until they agreed to sell a division of Alstom to GE.
This is why I support Trump as a European - at least he is upfront about the racket he is running. If the pretence cannot be maintained, our politicians will be forced to respond.
Meanwhile most European cash (from pension funds, wealth funds, banks etc) flows into Wall St indirectly funding Big Tech/SV etc.
So bog standard protectionism is what he's advocating for. He should have a discussion with economists as he's making assumptions outside his expertise, I suspect.
This is inconsistent. If Europe must ban American Big Tech because of human and privacy rights (something I tend to agree with) then it should not create anything in its stead, and actively prevent a European Silicon Valley from ever happening.
It's extremely unlikely European business people are better than Americans. Once they become powerful enough, chances are they will be even more evil.
Of course, it was swiftly pointed out that it would be impossible to mine it and meet the stringent environmental standards that we have in Europe, because we're good and care for the world.
Fine to trash the environment in China though.
Similarly, hands have been wrung in Finland because they banned importing Russian timber for obvious reasons, but this meant potentialy cutting down more Finnish wood and failing to meet environmental obligations. Aparently if you cut down trees a bit to the East it's ok for the environment.
The European regulatory regime is specifically designed to prioritize social welfare (as defined by regulators) over technological advance. Just look at Spotify: technically stagnant, but a lobbying and regulatory powerhouse.
Isn't the EU currently trying to force encryption back-doors?
What is needed is capital, world leading expertise (yes, top of the field - the people who can command the famous $100M sign on bonuses we hear about), and more risk appetite. If you were, say, an investor ready to fund and grow companies with ready captial, I think your options would be more open.
Most baffling to me are the 25 y.o. graduates of engineering universities who can't write five lines of code in a programming language of their choice. All right you want to be a developer, where the hell have you been all these years? You can get to the senior level by that age, let alone learn one programming language.
You’re tied to the Netherlands specifically for a few years, but that’s about the only knock I can see.
The first thing that springs off everyone's lips is 'healthcare' but the types of people we need aren't exactly going to struggle to afford higher quality than most public services here, wherever else they are.
And I don't think offering anything more is a good idea. There's little else a wealthy person can't already just buy in another country, except for maybe looser labour and environmental regulations, and I certainly don't want that.
If Europe wants to do anything that can compete with US big tech, they should get rid of those regulations first.
It creates a better-safe-than-sorry culture where companies would be crazy to take huge financial risks to ship advanced tech in a market that’s about 15% of the world.
Always when these rules are proposed big tech companies are used as scapegoats and any consideration of the fact that the rules affect everyone and restrict the freedom of everyone is brushed aside.
For now, that "crap" big tech throws at us outperforms the "non-crap".
I'd love to see competition though, K2 is a nice step.
One can try it, but it will never be a fair game.
I don't know what to make of that.
European investors are risk averse cowards who could never imagine putting down vast sums of money for pre-revenue, pre-profit type companies. That’s why you never get the big wins, and why you’ll never attract the big winners. They’ll just go to America.
Tit for tat.