As the "proper solution" here is of course not using PDFs that are hard-to-parse, but force elections to have machine parseable outputs. And LLMs can "fix in place" stupid solutions.
That's not a hate on the author though. I needed to do some PDF parsing for bank statements before; but also; the proper long-term solution is force banks (by law or by public interest) to have parseable statements, not parse it!
Like putting LLMs to understand bad codebase will not fix the bad codebase, but will build on top of it.
oh well c'est la vie
model-15-DAV · 1h ago
I think that we should encourage elections to _not_ be standardized. The problems among various polities in the USA have many different issues and should not be forced to conform to a specific way that elections should be done. This is a social problem and we should not cram it into a technical solution. Legibility of elections should be maintained at the local level, trying to make things legible at a national level is in my opinion unwanted. As much as I would like the data to be clean, people are not so clean. Even if they used slightly more structured formats than PDFs, the differences between polities must be maintained as long as they are different polities.
The way that OpenElections handles this, with 'sources' and 'data' directories I think is a good way to bridge the gap.
missingcolours · 8m ago
Not being standardized is fine and even a positive (diversity of technology vendors is a security feature and increases confidence in elections). But producing machine readable outputs of some sort, instead of physical paper and PDFs, is clearly a positive as well.
okayishdefaults · 1h ago
Just breaking down the thought a little, we truly can't say elections shouldn't have standards, right?
model-15-DAV · 1h ago
Elections at the local level should be governed by the locality. I do not see the need for standards at a higher level, other than for democracy to be maintained in some fashion. External data reporting certainly need not be standardized at t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶o̶c̶a̶l̶ [sic] a higher level.
dwillis · 1h ago
Totally reasonable view, and one of our volunteers actually got the law in Kansas changed to mandate electronic publishing of statewide precinct results in a structured format! But finding legislative champions for this issue isn't easy.
fasthands9 · 4h ago
In college (about 15 years ago) I worked for a professor who was compiling precint level results for old elections. My job was just to request the info and then do manual data entry. It was abysmally slow.
This application seems very good - but still a bit amazing that lawmakers haven't just required that all data be uploaded via csv! Even if every csv was slightly different format, it would be way easier for everyone (LLM or not).
xp84 · 3h ago
I could be wildly off-base, but I wonder if some of these systems are airgapped, and the only way the data comes off of the closed system is via printing, to avoid someone inserting a flash drive full of malware in the guise of "copying the CSV file." Obviously there are or should be technical ways to safely extract data in a digital format, but I can see a little value in the provable safety that airgapping gives you.
dwillis · 3h ago
In some cases that's true, but for many jurisdictions the results systems are third-party vendor platforms, too.
antonkar · 1h ago
Related: Interesting mockups to turn X/open source Bsky into direct democratic massive "prothetic" polls in each post.
And paid polls that the author claims will replace prediction markets:
This is such an excellent example of a responsible and thorough application of vision LLMs to a gnarly data entry problem.
polskibus · 6h ago
It’s also an excellent example on how lack of forced machine-readable format for gov publishing is a PITA.
Mtinie · 4h ago
If I was in power and wanted to continue said rule, I’d definitely discourage the adoption of any standardized formatting for election results.
Not, you know, for any nefarious purpose…but because what we’ve used forever was good enough for grandpappy, so it’s obviously good enough for us.
/cough
sitkack · 6h ago
json to qr code would be a good start. PRIOR ART inb4 a troll.
GardenLetter27 · 5h ago
Why is the original source data not available anywhere digitally?
Since it's printed it is clearly already in a database somewhere. Why can't that just be made public too.
Seems bizarre to OCR printed documents (although I am aware of many companies doing this to parse invoices, etc.)
simonw · 5h ago
Welcome to government data.
One key problem is that the US has tens of thousands of local governments, and each of them get to solve problems in their own way.
Digital literacy of the kind that understands why releasing a CSV file is more valuable than a PDF is rare enough that most of them won't have someone with that level of thinking in a decision making role.
codingdave · 3h ago
> most of them won't have someone with that level of thinking
That is an unfair take on it. Come out to the midwest and talk to some of the clerks in the small townships and counties out here. They do know the value of improved data and tech. And they know that investing in better tech can result in a little less money in the bank, which results in less gas to plow the roads, less money to pay someone to mow the ditches, which means on more car wrecked by hitting a deer. So the question is often not about CSV vs. PDF. It is about overall budget to do all the things that matter to the people of their town. Tech sometime just doesn't make the cut.
Besides, elections tend to have their own tech provided by the county or state, so there is standardization and additional help on such critical processes.
People running the smallest of government entities in this country tend to have pretty good heads on their shoulders. They get voted out pdq when they don't.
simonw · 3h ago
I'm not convinced by that argument. The data is clearly already in a spreadsheet of some sort already. I don't think "click export as CSV" v.s. "print out as paper and scan as PDF" is a cost decision.
This isn't meant as shade! I have full respect for people working in those roles. Knowing the difference between a CSV file and a PDF file - and understanding why there are people out there who curse the existence of PDFs and celebrate CSVs - is pretty arcane knowledge.
Also note that I blamed people in "a decision making role" - changing procedures requires buy-in from management. People in management roles are less likely to be thinking about CSVs v.s. PDFs than the people actually executing on the work.
As Derek pointed out in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44320001#44322987 this may often be a vendor limitation - in which case there is a cost factor to consider, and the blame can also be shared between the vendor and the person who made the purchasing decision without understanding the difference between PDF and CSV export.
cwmoore · 1h ago
Shade where the sunlight should fall. Let’s be honest. Then there’s less to remember.
bastawhiz · 2h ago
> elections tend to have their own tech provided by the county or state, so there is standardization and additional help on such critical processes.
There's fifty states and almost 4000 counties in the US, not to mention territories. Even if it was only fifty different standards, that's still an overwhelming amount of work and exactly the problem you're replying about.
cwmoore · 1h ago
Is it so impossible to expect compliance from government entities?
bastawhiz · 1h ago
To get all the states and counties using the same standard? Very impossible. That's the very crux of the tenth amendment. We don't even have consistent traffic laws from state to state.
nxrabl · 7h ago
Very interesting! Is this the state of the art for accurate OCR of tabular PDFs, or is there other work in the space to compare against?
SnooSux · 7h ago
There's lots of posts on HN for developments and companies doing OCR and Document Extraction. It's a classic CV problem but still has come a long way in the past couple years
dwillis · 5h ago
Yeah, this is a very well-traveled road, but LLMs have made some big improvements. If you asked me (the guy who wrote the original piece linked above) what I'd use if accuracy alone was the goal, probably would be AWS Textract. But accuracy and structure? Gemini.
benob · 6h ago
I wonder how difficult it would be to bias a model so that it subtly corrupts election results when performing OCR.
croemer · 6h ago
Surely not hard but why?
bilbo0s · 5h ago
Easier to steal elections?
Don't have to bother with gerrymandering, or slick legal ways to arrest people for voting with the wrong documents. Or just good old fashioned intimidation, like making the polling place the police station or the ICE detention facility.
It's just a lot smoother process when you can simply write some software to manipulate the count.
Who's gonna check?
(No, seriously, Who's gonna check? Because you also need to layoff everyone in that department once you're in power.)
simonw · 5h ago
Corrupted OCR won't help you steal elections. The result counting is a different process, with well designed checks and safeguards.
The problem is that once the counts are done and have been reported a lot of places then print those results out on paper and then scan those papers into a PDF for anyone who asks for a copy!
dwillis · 5h ago
Many jurisdictions do risk-limiting audits using the original ballots, so futzing with the results wouldn't necessarily make that easier. Also, cast vote records are public in many states - those are records of each ballot cast. So people can check.
As the "proper solution" here is of course not using PDFs that are hard-to-parse, but force elections to have machine parseable outputs. And LLMs can "fix in place" stupid solutions.
That's not a hate on the author though. I needed to do some PDF parsing for bank statements before; but also; the proper long-term solution is force banks (by law or by public interest) to have parseable statements, not parse it!
Like putting LLMs to understand bad codebase will not fix the bad codebase, but will build on top of it.
oh well c'est la vie
The way that OpenElections handles this, with 'sources' and 'data' directories I think is a good way to bridge the gap.
This application seems very good - but still a bit amazing that lawmakers haven't just required that all data be uploaded via csv! Even if every csv was slightly different format, it would be way easier for everyone (LLM or not).
And paid polls that the author claims will replace prediction markets:
https://x.com/MelonUsks/status/1929660387995115713
Not, you know, for any nefarious purpose…but because what we’ve used forever was good enough for grandpappy, so it’s obviously good enough for us.
/cough
Since it's printed it is clearly already in a database somewhere. Why can't that just be made public too.
Seems bizarre to OCR printed documents (although I am aware of many companies doing this to parse invoices, etc.)
One key problem is that the US has tens of thousands of local governments, and each of them get to solve problems in their own way.
Digital literacy of the kind that understands why releasing a CSV file is more valuable than a PDF is rare enough that most of them won't have someone with that level of thinking in a decision making role.
That is an unfair take on it. Come out to the midwest and talk to some of the clerks in the small townships and counties out here. They do know the value of improved data and tech. And they know that investing in better tech can result in a little less money in the bank, which results in less gas to plow the roads, less money to pay someone to mow the ditches, which means on more car wrecked by hitting a deer. So the question is often not about CSV vs. PDF. It is about overall budget to do all the things that matter to the people of their town. Tech sometime just doesn't make the cut.
Besides, elections tend to have their own tech provided by the county or state, so there is standardization and additional help on such critical processes.
People running the smallest of government entities in this country tend to have pretty good heads on their shoulders. They get voted out pdq when they don't.
This isn't meant as shade! I have full respect for people working in those roles. Knowing the difference between a CSV file and a PDF file - and understanding why there are people out there who curse the existence of PDFs and celebrate CSVs - is pretty arcane knowledge.
Also note that I blamed people in "a decision making role" - changing procedures requires buy-in from management. People in management roles are less likely to be thinking about CSVs v.s. PDFs than the people actually executing on the work.
As Derek pointed out in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44320001#44322987 this may often be a vendor limitation - in which case there is a cost factor to consider, and the blame can also be shared between the vendor and the person who made the purchasing decision without understanding the difference between PDF and CSV export.
There's fifty states and almost 4000 counties in the US, not to mention territories. Even if it was only fifty different standards, that's still an overwhelming amount of work and exactly the problem you're replying about.
Don't have to bother with gerrymandering, or slick legal ways to arrest people for voting with the wrong documents. Or just good old fashioned intimidation, like making the polling place the police station or the ICE detention facility.
It's just a lot smoother process when you can simply write some software to manipulate the count.
Who's gonna check?
(No, seriously, Who's gonna check? Because you also need to layoff everyone in that department once you're in power.)
The problem is that once the counts are done and have been reported a lot of places then print those results out on paper and then scan those papers into a PDF for anyone who asks for a copy!