Love this post. Writing on programming languages has changed how I think about _programming_ in general.
I often think about this quote from TAPL. This framing of “safety” changed how I design systems.
> Informally, though, safe languages can be defined as ones that make it impossible to shoot yourself in the foot while programming.
> Refining this intuition a little, we could say that a safe language _is one that protects its own abstractions_.
> Safety refers to the language's ability to guarantee the integrity of these abstractions and of higher-level abstractions introduced by the programmer using the definitional facilities of the language. For example, a language may provide arrays, with access and update operations, as an abstraction of the underlying memory. A programmer using this language then expects that an array can be changed only by using the update operation on it explicitly—and not, for example, by writing past the end of some other data structure.
It's a shame that Abdulaziz went quiet after moving back to Kuwait. He was our intern on Maxine VM back in 2009. A super nice guy and that paper is a gem!
tekknolagi · 27m ago
I know :( but it looks like he opened a bakery and that business is going well. So in some sense he's living the dream
sph · 4h ago
I love this! I have done a lot of CS research lately, and some of these I haven’t come across yet.
Let me share some of my favourites not listed here, off the top of my head:
- Ian Piumarta’s “Open, Extensible Object Models” (https://www.piumarta.com/software/id-objmodel/objmodel2.pdf) is about creating the most minimal object-oriented metaobject system that allows the maximum amount of freedom for the programmer. It basically only defines a message send operation, everything else can be changed at runtime. The practical counterpart to the dense “Art of the Metaobject Protocol” book.
- John Ousterhout “Scripting: Higher-Level Programming for the 21st Century” (https://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/papers/scripting.pd...) - not really a paper, but an article from the creator of Tcl about the dichotomy between systems programming languages and scripting languages. Obvious at first sight, the lessons therein have wide ramifications IMO. We always seek the perfect multi-paradigm language that can do anything at high performance with the most productivity, while perhaps it is best to have compiled, fast, clunky systems languages paired with ergonomic, flexible interpreted frontend. Often all you need is C+Tcl in the same app. A must-read for anyone writing yet another programming language.
- Niklaus Wirth's Project Oberon (https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ProjectOberon/) is the implementation of an entire computer system, from the high-level UI down to kernel, compiler, and a RISC-like CPU architecture. He wrote the seminal "plea for lean software" and actually walked the walk. A long lost art in the era of dependency hell and towering abstractions from mediocre coders.
johnecheck · 1h ago
Hmm, I disagree with Ousterhout's dichotomy and conclusions.
First, my understanding of his points - a language is either a systems language like C or a scripting language like TCL or python. Systems language have "strong" types and are for data structures/algorithms, scripting languages are "typeless" and are for "gluing things together".
The main claim is that scripting languages are more concise and allow for faster development when gluing due to their 'typeless' nature.
With C++
and Microsoft Foundation Classes (MFC), it requires
about 25 lines of code in three procedures. 1 Just set-
ting the font requires several lines of code in MFC:
CFont *fontPtr = new CFont();
fontPtr->CreateFont(16, 0, 0, 0, 700,
0, 0, 0, ANSI_CHARSET,
OUT_DEFAULT_PRECIS,
CLIP_DEFAULT_PRECIS,
DEFAULT_QUALITY,
DEFAULT_PITCH|FF_DONTCARE,
“Times New Roman”);
buttonPtr->SetFont(fontPtr);
Much of this code is a consequence of the strong typ-
ing[...] In Tcl, the essential characteristics of the
font (typeface Times, size 16 points) can be used
immediately with no declarations or conversions.
Furthermore, Tcl allows the button’s behavior
to be included directly in the command that cre-
ates the button, while C++ and Java require it to
be placed in a separately declared method.
End quote.
We've come a long way, and examples have made clear that this dichotomy is a false one. Ousterhout's view was colored by his limited experience, resulting in him misunderstanding what he actually likes about Tcl.
Let's talk about syntax. His exact Tcl code as presented could be parsed and compiled by a language that does static type analysis. It's not, because he's running it in an interpreter that only checks types at runtime. But the point is that whether code is compiled or interpreted is an implementation detail that has very little to do with the syntax. He likes his syntax because his syntax is obviously better than C++, nothing more.
And types: he claims that 'typeless' languages allow for faster development because of fewer restrictions. This is, ofc, nonsense. The amount of restrictions you have is a function of your problem, not your language. If it feels like dynamic typing is letting you develop faster, that's because you're putting off encountering those restrictions til later.
It's better to guarantee we encounter all type errors before the program even runs. But since you can do static type analysis for any language, why don't all languages do that?
Because it's hard. Type theory is complicated. Not all type systems are decidable, we need to pick one that is for practical reasons. Ones that are may require annotations or complex algorithms/semantics restrictions like Hindley-Milner.
As a PL designer, it's a whole lot easier to just give up and only check types at runtime. And that makes a whole lot of sense if your priority is just embedding a usable language ASAP. But let's not pretend that it's because it's actually better.
sph · 1h ago
> It's better to guarantee we encounter all type errors before the program even runs.
This is only valid if you either are writing mission-critical software, or have infinite time.
Your argument doesn’t consider the case that you have a deadline and need to ship, so optimising for productivity, rather than asymptotic typing perfection, is paramount. There is a reason even performance-critical environments, where scripting languages are not very well suited, somehow still lean on them for productivity.
Case in point, game dev (Unreal Engine with its blueprint system, Godot with GDScript, the myriad of game engines in C++ paired with Lua.) Of course in a vacuum game devs would like to write ideal data structures with strong typing so that the game doesn’t crash, but their goal is to ship a game within the decade, so limit the strong typing to performance critical engine and can focus on building and iterating on the core product without consulting type theory books.
The point of Mr. Ousterhout’s argument is that there are only two choices: either we invent the panacea, the mythical productive strong-typed language that gives 100% safety yet enables experimentation, optional typing and compiles to C++ speed native code, or we accept that this is an impossible pipe dream, and we need to use the correct tool for the problem. Again, obvious on the surface, but still a contentious point to this day.
yason · 29m ago
> And types: he claims that 'typeless' languages allow for faster
> development because of fewer restrictions. This is, ofc, nonsense.
> The amount of restrictions you have is a function of your problem,
> not your language.
Unless you're implementing something that's already known, you're effectively carving out your problem when you're in the process of writing code. There are more unknowns than there are knowns. A strongly typed language forces you to focus on satisfying the types before you can do anything, at a point where you don't exactly yet know what you want to do. The right time to cast your data rigidly into types is gradually when your data structures settle in their own place one by one; in other words when you're pretty sure things won't change too easily anymore. This allows writing code that works first and then, depending on your needs, gets next correct and then fast, or next fast and then correct. You use the weakly typed or "typeless" style as a prototyping tool that generates snippets of solid code that you can then typefy and write down for good.
7thaccount · 1h ago
But some languages DO have less restrictions. There's a lot less I have to worry about with Python than the quagmire of Java. You may say I'm putting something off (and maybe I am), but that is perfectly reasonable in a lot of scripting use cases.
7thaccount · 58m ago
Regarding weird development methods of interest...Aaron Hsu of APL fame writes a lot of code in calligraphy with fountain pens when trying to organize his thoughts. I do something kind of similar, but in print with a crummy bic pen and a flow chart of Python objects (kind of like poor man's UML).
deanebarker · 2h ago
I wish someone would write this for higher-level languages: JavaScript or .NET. I'm sure this person is brilliant, but they're operating at a much lower (higher?) level than most of us.
jwr · 3h ago
I would also highly recommend watching one of Rich Hickey's talks (especially the earlier ones). Watching those certainly changed how I thought about programming in general.
sph · 1h ago
Skip “Simple made easy” because I cannot stand hearing that talk quoted by basically every single conference speaker in the last decade. It’s become its own cliché.
(Joking of course. I much prefer “Hammock driven development” but it’s not very corporate friendly)
cnity · 45m ago
You say that, but if there's one thing I wish more mid-level engineers understood better about good code it's the distinction between simple and easy.
I like this guy, so nothing against him, but none of these are about PL and all about these are about compilers (except for the one about GC). Which is fine (I like compilers) but they're just not in any way about PL.
tekknolagi · 26m ago
Programming language (implementation)? :)
creativehubspac · 1h ago
Awesome. Thanks.
AlphaGeekZulu · 6h ago
For micrograd: is there more documentation available than just the source code in the Github repo?
1_08iu · 6h ago
He (Andrej Karpathy) has got a series on youtube which goes through how he made it!
I often think about this quote from TAPL. This framing of “safety” changed how I design systems.
> Informally, though, safe languages can be defined as ones that make it impossible to shoot yourself in the foot while programming.
> Refining this intuition a little, we could say that a safe language _is one that protects its own abstractions_.
> Safety refers to the language's ability to guarantee the integrity of these abstractions and of higher-level abstractions introduced by the programmer using the definitional facilities of the language. For example, a language may provide arrays, with access and update operations, as an abstraction of the underlying memory. A programmer using this language then expects that an array can be changed only by using the update operation on it explicitly—and not, for example, by writing past the end of some other data structure.
https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/tapl/
Let me share some of my favourites not listed here, off the top of my head:
- Ian Piumarta’s “Open, Extensible Object Models” (https://www.piumarta.com/software/id-objmodel/objmodel2.pdf) is about creating the most minimal object-oriented metaobject system that allows the maximum amount of freedom for the programmer. It basically only defines a message send operation, everything else can be changed at runtime. The practical counterpart to the dense “Art of the Metaobject Protocol” book.
- John Ousterhout “Scripting: Higher-Level Programming for the 21st Century” (https://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/papers/scripting.pd...) - not really a paper, but an article from the creator of Tcl about the dichotomy between systems programming languages and scripting languages. Obvious at first sight, the lessons therein have wide ramifications IMO. We always seek the perfect multi-paradigm language that can do anything at high performance with the most productivity, while perhaps it is best to have compiled, fast, clunky systems languages paired with ergonomic, flexible interpreted frontend. Often all you need is C+Tcl in the same app. A must-read for anyone writing yet another programming language.
- Niklaus Wirth's Project Oberon (https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ProjectOberon/) is the implementation of an entire computer system, from the high-level UI down to kernel, compiler, and a RISC-like CPU architecture. He wrote the seminal "plea for lean software" and actually walked the walk. A long lost art in the era of dependency hell and towering abstractions from mediocre coders.
First, my understanding of his points - a language is either a systems language like C or a scripting language like TCL or python. Systems language have "strong" types and are for data structures/algorithms, scripting languages are "typeless" and are for "gluing things together".
The main claim is that scripting languages are more concise and allow for faster development when gluing due to their 'typeless' nature.
In his example, he creates a button in Tcl.
button .b -text Hello! -font {Times 16} -command {puts hello}
He goes on to say:
With C++ and Microsoft Foundation Classes (MFC), it requires about 25 lines of code in three procedures. 1 Just set- ting the font requires several lines of code in MFC: CFont *fontPtr = new CFont(); fontPtr->CreateFont(16, 0, 0, 0, 700, 0, 0, 0, ANSI_CHARSET, OUT_DEFAULT_PRECIS, CLIP_DEFAULT_PRECIS, DEFAULT_QUALITY, DEFAULT_PITCH|FF_DONTCARE, “Times New Roman”); buttonPtr->SetFont(fontPtr);
Much of this code is a consequence of the strong typ- ing[...] In Tcl, the essential characteristics of the font (typeface Times, size 16 points) can be used immediately with no declarations or conversions. Furthermore, Tcl allows the button’s behavior to be included directly in the command that cre- ates the button, while C++ and Java require it to be placed in a separately declared method.
End quote.
We've come a long way, and examples have made clear that this dichotomy is a false one. Ousterhout's view was colored by his limited experience, resulting in him misunderstanding what he actually likes about Tcl.
Let's talk about syntax. His exact Tcl code as presented could be parsed and compiled by a language that does static type analysis. It's not, because he's running it in an interpreter that only checks types at runtime. But the point is that whether code is compiled or interpreted is an implementation detail that has very little to do with the syntax. He likes his syntax because his syntax is obviously better than C++, nothing more.
And types: he claims that 'typeless' languages allow for faster development because of fewer restrictions. This is, ofc, nonsense. The amount of restrictions you have is a function of your problem, not your language. If it feels like dynamic typing is letting you develop faster, that's because you're putting off encountering those restrictions til later.
It's better to guarantee we encounter all type errors before the program even runs. But since you can do static type analysis for any language, why don't all languages do that?
Because it's hard. Type theory is complicated. Not all type systems are decidable, we need to pick one that is for practical reasons. Ones that are may require annotations or complex algorithms/semantics restrictions like Hindley-Milner.
As a PL designer, it's a whole lot easier to just give up and only check types at runtime. And that makes a whole lot of sense if your priority is just embedding a usable language ASAP. But let's not pretend that it's because it's actually better.
This is only valid if you either are writing mission-critical software, or have infinite time.
Your argument doesn’t consider the case that you have a deadline and need to ship, so optimising for productivity, rather than asymptotic typing perfection, is paramount. There is a reason even performance-critical environments, where scripting languages are not very well suited, somehow still lean on them for productivity.
Case in point, game dev (Unreal Engine with its blueprint system, Godot with GDScript, the myriad of game engines in C++ paired with Lua.) Of course in a vacuum game devs would like to write ideal data structures with strong typing so that the game doesn’t crash, but their goal is to ship a game within the decade, so limit the strong typing to performance critical engine and can focus on building and iterating on the core product without consulting type theory books.
The point of Mr. Ousterhout’s argument is that there are only two choices: either we invent the panacea, the mythical productive strong-typed language that gives 100% safety yet enables experimentation, optional typing and compiles to C++ speed native code, or we accept that this is an impossible pipe dream, and we need to use the correct tool for the problem. Again, obvious on the surface, but still a contentious point to this day.
Unless you're implementing something that's already known, you're effectively carving out your problem when you're in the process of writing code. There are more unknowns than there are knowns. A strongly typed language forces you to focus on satisfying the types before you can do anything, at a point where you don't exactly yet know what you want to do. The right time to cast your data rigidly into types is gradually when your data structures settle in their own place one by one; in other words when you're pretty sure things won't change too easily anymore. This allows writing code that works first and then, depending on your needs, gets next correct and then fast, or next fast and then correct. You use the weakly typed or "typeless" style as a prototyping tool that generates snippets of solid code that you can then typefy and write down for good.
(Joking of course. I much prefer “Hammock driven development” but it’s not very corporate friendly)
https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a7664693/mandela-effe...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMj-3S1tku0&list=PLAqhIrjkxb...