Will this protection extend to automobile companies ? Mobile Apps ? Mobile OSs ? I have lost track of the number of leakage points for location data into the tarball of databrokers.
cm2187 · 13m ago
Not much of a protection. They will just add one more line in the 50 pages terms of service you have to agree to to get a contract.
comex · 1h ago
Nope. The court is applying an old law that specifically applies to carriers providing "telecommunications services", no one else.
(Incidentally, even the term "telecommunications service" only encompasses voice call service, not mobile data or SMS. The FCC tried to reclassify Internet access as a telecommunications service during the Obama and Biden administrations, in order to get authority to impose net neutrality rules, but it was ultimately overturned in court.)
m463 · 1h ago
> "telecommunications service" only encompasses voice call service
I wonder if those helpful text messages from some company can locate you?
I've heard that tow truck companies can find your location because it is somewhat like and emergency.
by the way, verizon is just plain evil.
I remember years ago when they would add identifying cookies to all web requests outgoing from your phone to identify your specific handset. (search "verizon supercookie")
bryanrasmussen · 10m ago
what are the ways you can poison or fake your location data, like if Verizon in response to this decides to offer a cheaper plan for sharing your location data?
codeduck · 4m ago
gps spoofer perhaps?
silisili · 44s ago
It's much more likely they're selling tower triangulation data, but let me know if that theory is wrong.
autoexec · 1h ago
The courts have decided that Verizon selling location data without consent is illegal but I'd be willing to bet that the courts haven't decided that it should be unprofitable.
I'd be surprised if Verizon and the other companies haven't made more than enough money by breaking the law back in 2018 to rake in a nice profit even after the fines they're trying to weasel out of paying now.
I have no doubt that they're still selling our data one way or another anyway. We know for a fact that they've never stopped selling data to to law enforcement, they just require a rubber stamped court order/subpoena to do it.
fn-mote · 5h ago
I like this part:
[denied because…]
> Verizon had, and chose to forgo, the opportunity for a jury trial in federal court.
petertodd · 4h ago
That was probably a sound legal strategy. Selling location data without consent is obviously unethical behavior that should be illegal. A jury is more likely to rule on the basis of that; with a judge maybe there's a chance that a technicality in the law leads to a ruling in their favor.
Anyway, this practice should be criminalized with companies and their employees receiving criminal penalties like jail time.
kevin_thibedeau · 3h ago
It won't because the US government relies on third parties to funnel data into its panopticon as a constitutional side step.
thrwaway55 · 3h ago
Replace employee with exec. An employee may need a job and can be coerced for reasons they don't control.
petertodd · 58m ago
"Just following orders" is not a valid excuse.
Besides, one reason why they can be coerced is because these actions aren't clearly illegal. If they are, the employee can just report what they're being asked to do to the police. Workplace safety has been dramatically improved in western countries simply by making many unsafe practices illegal and creating entities to report illegal work to. While this did require criminal charges for some managers and employees, because safety has improved so much, they're really not that common.
I remember when I had workplace safety training as a poorly paid university lab monitor. They made clear that I had potential criminal legal liability if I allowed egregiously unsafe things to happen. So they didn't.
soulofmischief · 2h ago
That same position legitimizes basically all police brutality.
akoboldfrying · 2h ago
It doesn't legitimize all police brutality, only whatever amount of it is necessary to keep your job.
And legitimising this is appropriate. The only other position -- requiring people to behave in a way that doesn't meet their basic needs for survival -- would be inappropriate. It is the responsibility of those in power to prevent society from degrading to a point where police are forced to be violent in order to keep their jobs.
Frieren · 1h ago
If a doctor fucks up is liable for bad practice.
If an architect fucks up is liable for bad practice.
CEOs, CTOs, etc. of organizations with the budged of small countries can be stupid, unknowledgeable and reckless and there are no consequences (unless it affects shareholders money). Executives should be held legally accountable of the damage that their companies do.
Accountability is required for a civilized society. When the people with the most power do not need to follow any rule we get into anarchy and chaos. Just watch the news to see that it is already happening.
slowhadoken · 4h ago
I feel like a cop looking at this company’s behavior. “If you’re not guilty why are you acting guilty, Verizon?”
Assuming they'll lose this, they'll probably move to coercing the selling of your location data as "part of doing business with them." Sigh.
sidcool · 3h ago
Thanks court.
cwmoore · 1h ago
Retroactively assign all future data value to...the next president?
electric_muse · 2h ago
Carriers have been selling this stuff forever. The only surprise is that they were arrogant enough to argue it was outright legal rather than hiding behind “user consent” fine print.
The bigger issue is that every telecom treats location data as an asset class. If you think a court ruling will make them suddenly respect privacy, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. They’ll just bury consent deeper in the UX until it looks indistinguishable from compliance.
malux85 · 2h ago
How much did they make selling the data?
If it's greater than the fine, and they suffer no other consequences (e.g. nobody goes to jail) then the fine is just cost-of-business.
The fine must be greater than what they made, AND some executives or management needs to be held responsible - at least fired.
Otherwise it will just keep happening.
tonyhart7 · 2h ago
even with user consent, they should ban it period
Workaccount2 · 2h ago
Good.
Now apply it to Flock.
SilverElfin · 3h ago
Great. Now jail the executives, pierce the veil, seize their assets.
slowhadoken · 4h ago
Pretty soon you’re going to need insurance for your paycheck. When people are poorest that’s when corporate types turn the screws lmfao smh
(Incidentally, even the term "telecommunications service" only encompasses voice call service, not mobile data or SMS. The FCC tried to reclassify Internet access as a telecommunications service during the Obama and Biden administrations, in order to get authority to impose net neutrality rules, but it was ultimately overturned in court.)
I wonder if those helpful text messages from some company can locate you?
I've heard that tow truck companies can find your location because it is somewhat like and emergency.
by the way, verizon is just plain evil.
I remember years ago when they would add identifying cookies to all web requests outgoing from your phone to identify your specific handset. (search "verizon supercookie")
I'd be surprised if Verizon and the other companies haven't made more than enough money by breaking the law back in 2018 to rake in a nice profit even after the fines they're trying to weasel out of paying now.
I have no doubt that they're still selling our data one way or another anyway. We know for a fact that they've never stopped selling data to to law enforcement, they just require a rubber stamped court order/subpoena to do it.
[denied because…] > Verizon had, and chose to forgo, the opportunity for a jury trial in federal court.
Anyway, this practice should be criminalized with companies and their employees receiving criminal penalties like jail time.
Besides, one reason why they can be coerced is because these actions aren't clearly illegal. If they are, the employee can just report what they're being asked to do to the police. Workplace safety has been dramatically improved in western countries simply by making many unsafe practices illegal and creating entities to report illegal work to. While this did require criminal charges for some managers and employees, because safety has improved so much, they're really not that common.
I remember when I had workplace safety training as a poorly paid university lab monitor. They made clear that I had potential criminal legal liability if I allowed egregiously unsafe things to happen. So they didn't.
And legitimising this is appropriate. The only other position -- requiring people to behave in a way that doesn't meet their basic needs for survival -- would be inappropriate. It is the responsibility of those in power to prevent society from degrading to a point where police are forced to be violent in order to keep their jobs.
CEOs, CTOs, etc. of organizations with the budged of small countries can be stupid, unknowledgeable and reckless and there are no consequences (unless it affects shareholders money). Executives should be held legally accountable of the damage that their companies do.
Accountability is required for a civilized society. When the people with the most power do not need to follow any rule we get into anarchy and chaos. Just watch the news to see that it is already happening.
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ca2.3fa...
The bigger issue is that every telecom treats location data as an asset class. If you think a court ruling will make them suddenly respect privacy, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. They’ll just bury consent deeper in the UX until it looks indistinguishable from compliance.
If it's greater than the fine, and they suffer no other consequences (e.g. nobody goes to jail) then the fine is just cost-of-business.
The fine must be greater than what they made, AND some executives or management needs to be held responsible - at least fired.
Otherwise it will just keep happening.
Now apply it to Flock.