Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

22 stephenheron 18 8/25/2025, 9:50:41 PM

Hi,

My daily workhorse is a M1 Pro that I purchased on release date, It has been one of the best tech purchases I have made, even now it really deals with anything I throw at it. My daily work load is regularly having a Android emulator, iOS simulator and a number of Dockers containers running simultaneously and I never hear the fans, battery life has taken a bit of a hit but it is still very respectable.

I wanted a new personal laptop, and I was debating between a MacBook Air or going for a Framework 13 with Linux. I wanted to lean into learning something new so went with the Framework and I must admit I am regretting it a bit.

The M1 was released back in 2020 and I bought the Ryzen AI 340 which is one of the newest 2025 chips from AMD, so AMD has 5 years of extra development and I had expected them to get close to the M1 in terms of battery efficiency and thermals.

The Ryzen is using a TSMC N4P process compared to the older N5 process, I managed to find a TSMC press release showing the performance/efficiency gains from the newer process: “When compared to N5, N4P offers users a reported +11% performance boost or a 22% reduction in power consumption. Beyond that, N4P can offer users a 6% increase in transistor density over N5”

I am sorely disappointed, using the Framework feels like using an older Intel based Mac. If I open too many tabs in Chrome I can feel the bottom of the laptop getting hot, open a YouTube video and the fans will often spin up.

Why haven’t AMD/Intel been able to catch up? Is x86 just not able to keep up with the ARM architecture? When can we expect a x86 laptop chip to match the M1 in efficiency/thermals?!

To be fair I haven’t tried Windows on the Framework yet it might be my Linux setup being inefficient.

Cheers, Stephen

Comments (18)

al_borland · 6m ago

I’ve been thinking a lot about getting something from Framework, as I like their ethos around relatability. However, I currently have an M1 Pro which works just fine, so I’ve been kicking the can down the road while worrying that it just won’t be up to par in terms of what I’m used to from Apple. Not just the processor, but everything. Even in the Intel Mac days, I ended up buying a Asus Zephyrus G14, which had nothing but glowing reviews from everyone. I hated it and sold it within 6 months. There is a level of polish that I haven’t seen on any x86 laptop, which makes it really hard for me to venture outside of Apple’s sandbox.

blacksmith_tb · 42m ago

I considered getting a personal MBP (I have an M3 from work), but picked up a Framework 13 with the AMD 7 7840U. I have Pop!_OS on it, and while it isn't quite as impressive as the MBP, it is radically better than other Windows / Linux laptops I have used lately, battery life is quite good, ~5hr or so, not quite on par with the MBP but still good enough that I don't really have any complaints (and being able to up upgrade RAM / SSD / even mobo is worth some tradeoff to me, where my employers will just throw my MBP away in a few years).

daemonologist · 1h ago

I think this is partially down to Framework being a very small and new company that doesn't have the resources to make the best use of every last coulomb, rather than an inherent deficiency of x86. The larger companies like Asus and Lenovo are able to build more efficient laptops (at least under Windows), while Apple (having very few product SKUs and full vertical integration) can push things even further.

notebookcheck.com does pretty comprehensive battery and power efficiency testing - not of every single device, but they usually include a pretty good sample of the popular options.

dapperdrake · 39m ago

How much do you like the rest of the hardware? What price would seem OK for decent GUI software that runs for a long time on batter?

Am learning x86 in order to build nice software for the Framework 12 i3 13-1315U (raptor lake). Going into the optimization manuals for intel's E-cores (apparently Atom) and AMD's 5c cores. The efficiency cores on the M1 MacBook Pro are awesome. Getting debian or Ubuntu with KDE to run this on a FW12 will be mind-boggling.

trashface · 1h ago

I may be out of date or wrong, but I recall when the M1 came out there was some claims that x86 could never catch up, because there is an instruction decoding bottleneck (instructions are all variable size), which the M1 does not have, or can do in parallel. Because of that bottleneck x86 needs to use other tricks to get speed and those run hot.

Remnant44 · 11m ago

ARM instructions are fixed size, while x86 are variable. This makes a wide decoder fairly trivial for ARM, while it is complex and difficult for x86.

However, this doesn't really hold up as the cause for the difference. The Zen4/5 chips, for example, source the vast majority of their instructions out of their uOp trace cache, where the instructions have already been decoded. This also saves power - even on ARM, decoders take power.

People have been trying to figure out the "secret sauce" since the M chips have been introduced. In my opinion, it's a combination of:

1) The apple engineers did a superb job creating a well balanced architecture

2) Being close to their memory subsystem with lots of bandwidth and deep buffers so they can use it is great. For example, my old M2 Pro macbook has more than twice the memory bandwidth than the current best desktop CPU, the zen5 9950x. That's absurd, but here we are...

3) AMD and Intel heavily bias on the costly side of the watts vs performance curve. Even the compact zen cores are optimized more for area than wattage. I'm curious what a true low power zen core (akin to the apple e cores) would do.

scarface_74 · 25m ago

No one ever said that. The M1 was not the fastest laptop when it was introduced. It was a nice balance of speed/battery life/heat

roscas · 2h ago

RISC vs CISC. Why you think a mainframe is so fast?

ARM is great. Those M are the only thing I could buy used and put Linux on it.

alexjplant · 5m ago

> RISC vs CISC. Why you think a mainframe is so fast?

This hasn't been true for decades. Mainframes are fast because they have proprietary architectures that are purpose-built for high throughput and redundancy, not because they're RISC. The pre-eminent mainframe architecture these days (z/Architecture) is categorized as CISC.

Processors are insanely complicated these days. Branch prediction, instruction decoding, micro-ops, reordering, speculative execution, cache tiering strategies... I could go on and on but you get the idea. It's no longer as obvious as "RISC -> orthogonal addressing and short instructions -> speed".

matt_s · 1h ago

Its fun watching things swing back and forth over time. I remember having those Sun mini-fridge size servers, all running RISC sparc based CPU's if I remember correctly. I wonder if there would be some merit in RISC based linux servers, like maybe the power consumption is lower? I forget the pros/cons of RISC vs CISC CPUs.

JustExAWS · 2h ago

I thought people stopped believing this around 2005 when Apple users finally had to admit that PPC was behind x86.

Even though this was the case for the most part during the entire history of PPC Macs (I owned two during these years)

https://chipsandcheese.com/p/arm-or-x86-isa-doesnt-matter

bigyabai · 2h ago

All Ryzen mobile chips (so far) use a homogeneous core layout. If heat/power consumption is your concern, AMD simply hasn't caught up to the Big.little architecture Intel and Apple use.

In terms of performance though, those N4P Ryzen chips have knocked it out of the park for my use-cases. It's a great architecture for desktop/datacenter applications, still.

goosedragons · 1h ago

Sort of. Technically the Ryzen 5 AI 340 has 3 Zen 5 cores and 3 Zen 5c cores. They are more similar than the power/efficiency cores of Apple/Intel but 5c cores are more power efficient.

netvarun · 2h ago

s/x84/x86/

rl3 · 1h ago

>s/x84/x86/

TIL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopole_(company)#Racing_cars

I was kind of hoping that there was some little-known x84 standard that never saw the light of day, but instead all I found was classic French racing cars.

dmitrygr · 52m ago

There is one positive to all of this. Finally, we can stop listening to people who keep saying that Apple Silicon is ahead of everyone else because they have access to better process. There are now chips on better processes than M1 that still deliver much worse performance per watt.

dapperdrake · 37m ago

Go down the rabbit hole of broken compiler settings for debian default builds, if you want to see how much low-hanging fruit we still have.

Who here would be interested in testing a distro like debian with builds optimized for the Framework devices?

bigyabai · 11m ago

Not sure why you'd think that, comparing a heterogeneous core architecture to a homogeneous one. Mobile Ryzen chips aren't designed for power efficiency, if you want a "fair" comparison then pull up a Big.little x86 chip or benchmark Apple's performance cores vs AMD's mobile chipsets.

Once you normalize for either efficiency cores or performance cores, you'll quickly realize that the node lead is the largest advantage Apple had. Those guys were right, the writing was on the wall in 2019.