Are there, really, developers whose productivity is first and foremost constrained by how fast they can type? If so, what else is known about them? What class of problems are they working on?
yoyohello13 · 13m ago
Just because it’s not the main bottleneck doesn’t mean it’s not worth optimizing. Also, yes I have seen devs that type so slowly they really would benefit from learning how to type properly.
I actually switched to an alternative layout and minimal keyboard like this just because it’s fun. If I can make my work day more fun, that’s a win in my book.
throwaway71271 · 21m ago
For me its not how fast I can type, my brain(ADHD or whatever this is) needs certain flow of speed; I think of something and want to type it, if I am delayed (e.g. imagine I change from qwerty to dvorak and am still learning) for whatever reason, e.g. key is stuck, my mind goes somewhere else, and then I have to "bring it back".
Also as I am typing one thing I am thinking of another, or even third, so if something goes wrong with the mechanics of the first thing, then whole set of dominoes fall and I have to go back.
Sometimes for a given thought I even type 3rd of 4th word instead of the first if for some reason my keys are not pressed. And then I type a word from the next thought and etc. It even gives me anxiety.
As I am typing the code, I am thinking about the code that is going to use the it, and then the code one layer up, I also think of the machine itself, its wires, cache lines, or I think of how the variable I am typing now is related to its surroundings, I imagine a ladder to the moon each step with its address, and I think how far are things from "me", and so on.
I cant speak of others, but for me keyboard layout and even key feeling/rythm is important just because it allows me to think uninterrupted.
jinay · 46m ago
I used to think that typing speed was not really that important, especially when now we have so many LLMs doing the typing for us. But honestly, now I think it's even more important because the specificity and detail in your prompts are paramount to getting a good response, and something like a dictation tool (which is what I'm using right now) is really good for generating very specific prompts.
In fact, I wrote all this out using a dictation tool in ~20 seconds (258 WPM).
carlinm · 38m ago
Curious, what dictation tool are you using?
carlmr · 27m ago
Same, 258wpm is something.
carlmr · 7m ago
I find fast typing is super important to my programming, not because I need to write walls of text, but because if I get into a flow state, I find it irritating if my thoughts are constrained by my typing speed.
rgoulter · 8m ago
Conversely, do you think there are developers who would not benefit from being able to type quicker?
spooneybarger · 48m ago
I use a layout like this and I'm slower than on a traditional qwerty layout. OTOH, I also have far fewer RSI problems.
Speed is rarely a consideration in the community.
bowsamic · 47m ago
Changing keyboard ergonomics is absolutely not the way to deal with RSI. You should instead go to the gym and do proper physio exercises
danieldk · 20m ago
Going to a split, key well board, solved my wrist issues. I had severe issues on a traditional row stagger keyboard and they have just gone. The only time I feel discomfort is when I type on a row stagger keyboard again for two weeks (e.g. when taking my laptop with me during a trip).
jpc0 · 41m ago
If you hand is in a position that is putting any of your anatomy at a weird angle no amount of exercise is going to sort that out.
jerrygenser · 41m ago
If you have small hands and you are stretching for delet/backspace and a small kb allows you to hit this key without strain, it absolutely helps with strain on fingers.
I tried many things over the years including other ergonomics and gym etc.
Changing to a smaller split keyboard helped the most and I have not had pain since.
Granted mine has about 50 keys or so so it's not as extreme.
lawn · 45m ago
It's about comfort, not speed. Moving to a minimalistic keyboard did wonders for me RSI.
bowsamic · 47m ago
It’s an obsessive thing imo, I don’t think it’s actually rooted in a practical thing. They’re just trying to justify an addiction
yoyohello13 · 3m ago
One man’s addiction is another man’s hobby.
anttiharju · 23m ago
Everyone needs hobbies
stephendause · 1h ago
My coworker has a similar setup and loves it. Personally, it feels diametrically opposed to the way that I like to use my keyboard. I don't even like holding Shift to type `{`, `_`, etc when programming. I wish I had dedicated keys for those and other common symbols. I don't mind moving my hands a few inches at all, but for some reason, it feels cumbersome to me to hold down a key to activate another layer. To each their own, of course.
Hojojo · 17m ago
I have my layer switch key configured to require only a button press, then the next key I type will be from that layer. So I don't have to hold it down. It's so much more comfortable to use special symbols this way. I've also done this for my shift key.
theroncross · 22m ago
There's a non-obvious, but significant, difference between holding with a thumb in a neutral position and holding with a pinky in a stretched position. Layers become effortless on a keyboard like this.
_def · 1h ago
I guess that's why the thumbs get used here to activate the other layers. I have to try it, but thinking about it it seems way more ergonomic compared to the usual position of the shift key
Hojojo · 16m ago
This is definitely the case. Since the layer key is at the thumb, it doesn't require moving your hand and you barely need to move your thumb. As somebody who suffers from wrist pain, this makes a huge difference.
Some observations from someone who has also used minimalist layouts on similar keyboards for a while:
- Thumbs can also get overuse. I would generally only recommend to use one key for each thumb very frequently to avoid too much lateral movement. Also don't go overboard with layer holds on thumbs.
- The thumb key placement on some of these boards, e.g. the placement of the inner thumb key on the Ferris-based keyboard in the linked post, is quite disastrous. Unless you have very small hands, the thumb will be very close to the palm or even under the palm, and this can get very painful over longer periods. Even worse is that if you type very fast, the index finger can cross the thumb. Just try it a few times. If you keep your thumb on the thumb key while doing that, there is a lot of tension in the fingers.
- The obsession with minimalist layouts is to minimize finger/hand movement. But I could find not much evidence in the scientific literature that less movement is actually good. It's also a huge trade-off, because you end up with a lot of holds (which are probably not great for your fingers either) or additional key presses (Callum mods). There are also other ways to decrease finger travel, like using a key well keyboard, which not only reduces distances, but also puts your fingers in a more natural resting position and makes the finger movements more natural (since keys are laid out along the natural arcs of the fingers) [1].
I went away from small keyboards and minimalist layouts. I certainly use far fewer keys than most people and some layers. But I have found that key well boards make more keys reachable and have superior ergonomics.
Also, if you have a finger/hand issue as a result of keyboard/mouse use, visit a medical expert, not /r/ergomechkeyboards .
(I am not a health/ergonomics expert, just speaking from experience. Though it's probably best to ignore this and consult an expert.)
[1] There is a lot of pseudo-science in the whole ergo keyboard community, with folk wisdom like "Dactyl-style squeeze thumb clusters are better, because we naturally squeeze our thumbs to grab objects", meanwhile a lot of folks had thumb injuries from that type of cluster. The only types of keyboards that I could find research papers about were Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard-style boards, which seem to have their design decisions grounded in actual human trials and some of the early Maltron keyboards.
gryn · 17m ago
I started using (programming and everything else) with a 34key keyboard with miryoku layout with inverted T arrow keys & native mouse emulation layer enabled around 2years ago and I haven't looked back.
it's more comfortable, it fixed my pathological touch typing too.
for those a want to give it a try, here are my the problems I encountered so far:
- stuff like Figma where you need to keep holding the space bar to change editing modes, won't work you need to make you custom (single purpose) space button if you want it.
- you can't play video games, unless you make you own custom layer or give each game a custom key bindings. I don't game much and when I do I use a gamepad so this haven't been much of a bother for much
of bother for me but if you do It's something to keep in mind.
- the MCU boards that are available are very finicky,
the nice!nano breaks easily I bought multiple replacements, they are very heat senstive.
I had pins die, the charging circuit die on multiple ocasions in different boards.
also I think using the mill-max pin was a mistake on my part even if it was the recommendation, they more expensive, annoying and
you can't just plug them in a breadboard to test & debug them.
on the web there's also an alternative commendation to use the leftover metal parts of the resistances/diodes. I would also recommend against it, with time the connections
to the board start disconnecting since you probably won't cut all of them to the same exact length and that they wiggle inside the mill-max pin sockets.
just use the standard ones that are used in most PCBs even if they are bigger.
- avoid using jack connectors to connect the sleeves, they can fry your MCUs and when they don't with time they give out and they start to disconnect they sleeves need time to reconnect and it makes for a bad user experience.
- if you make a wireless keyboard don't add LED backlights or individual per key LEDs they significantly drain your battery life even when you're not using them.
- Bluetooth connection is still somewhat unreliable, having something with wireless 2,4ghz would be better but I don't think there's an open source solution for that which is off the shelf,
so if you want it you'll probably to make your own or tweak something from somewhere else.
I want to make a keyboard like the one that was submitted here a few weeks or months ago that takes these notes into account but I haven't found the time or the motivation.
EDIT: this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43255529
I've also seen some people sell and kind of open-source versions in ali express recently for around 60eur pre-assembled. I haven't ordered one so I'm not recommending it, just curious if anyone here ever did.
I actually switched to an alternative layout and minimal keyboard like this just because it’s fun. If I can make my work day more fun, that’s a win in my book.
Also as I am typing one thing I am thinking of another, or even third, so if something goes wrong with the mechanics of the first thing, then whole set of dominoes fall and I have to go back.
Sometimes for a given thought I even type 3rd of 4th word instead of the first if for some reason my keys are not pressed. And then I type a word from the next thought and etc. It even gives me anxiety.
As I am typing the code, I am thinking about the code that is going to use the it, and then the code one layer up, I also think of the machine itself, its wires, cache lines, or I think of how the variable I am typing now is related to its surroundings, I imagine a ladder to the moon each step with its address, and I think how far are things from "me", and so on.
I cant speak of others, but for me keyboard layout and even key feeling/rythm is important just because it allows me to think uninterrupted.
In fact, I wrote all this out using a dictation tool in ~20 seconds (258 WPM).
Speed is rarely a consideration in the community.
I tried many things over the years including other ergonomics and gym etc.
Changing to a smaller split keyboard helped the most and I have not had pain since.
Granted mine has about 50 keys or so so it's not as extreme.
- Thumbs can also get overuse. I would generally only recommend to use one key for each thumb very frequently to avoid too much lateral movement. Also don't go overboard with layer holds on thumbs.
- The thumb key placement on some of these boards, e.g. the placement of the inner thumb key on the Ferris-based keyboard in the linked post, is quite disastrous. Unless you have very small hands, the thumb will be very close to the palm or even under the palm, and this can get very painful over longer periods. Even worse is that if you type very fast, the index finger can cross the thumb. Just try it a few times. If you keep your thumb on the thumb key while doing that, there is a lot of tension in the fingers.
- The obsession with minimalist layouts is to minimize finger/hand movement. But I could find not much evidence in the scientific literature that less movement is actually good. It's also a huge trade-off, because you end up with a lot of holds (which are probably not great for your fingers either) or additional key presses (Callum mods). There are also other ways to decrease finger travel, like using a key well keyboard, which not only reduces distances, but also puts your fingers in a more natural resting position and makes the finger movements more natural (since keys are laid out along the natural arcs of the fingers) [1].
I went away from small keyboards and minimalist layouts. I certainly use far fewer keys than most people and some layers. But I have found that key well boards make more keys reachable and have superior ergonomics.
Also, if you have a finger/hand issue as a result of keyboard/mouse use, visit a medical expert, not /r/ergomechkeyboards .
(I am not a health/ergonomics expert, just speaking from experience. Though it's probably best to ignore this and consult an expert.)
[1] There is a lot of pseudo-science in the whole ergo keyboard community, with folk wisdom like "Dactyl-style squeeze thumb clusters are better, because we naturally squeeze our thumbs to grab objects", meanwhile a lot of folks had thumb injuries from that type of cluster. The only types of keyboards that I could find research papers about were Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard-style boards, which seem to have their design decisions grounded in actual human trials and some of the early Maltron keyboards.
for those a want to give it a try, here are my the problems I encountered so far:
- stuff like Figma where you need to keep holding the space bar to change editing modes, won't work you need to make you custom (single purpose) space button if you want it.
- you can't play video games, unless you make you own custom layer or give each game a custom key bindings. I don't game much and when I do I use a gamepad so this haven't been much of a bother for much of bother for me but if you do It's something to keep in mind.
- the MCU boards that are available are very finicky, the nice!nano breaks easily I bought multiple replacements, they are very heat senstive. I had pins die, the charging circuit die on multiple ocasions in different boards. also I think using the mill-max pin was a mistake on my part even if it was the recommendation, they more expensive, annoying and you can't just plug them in a breadboard to test & debug them. on the web there's also an alternative commendation to use the leftover metal parts of the resistances/diodes. I would also recommend against it, with time the connections to the board start disconnecting since you probably won't cut all of them to the same exact length and that they wiggle inside the mill-max pin sockets. just use the standard ones that are used in most PCBs even if they are bigger.
- avoid using jack connectors to connect the sleeves, they can fry your MCUs and when they don't with time they give out and they start to disconnect they sleeves need time to reconnect and it makes for a bad user experience.
- if you make a wireless keyboard don't add LED backlights or individual per key LEDs they significantly drain your battery life even when you're not using them.
- Bluetooth connection is still somewhat unreliable, having something with wireless 2,4ghz would be better but I don't think there's an open source solution for that which is off the shelf, so if you want it you'll probably to make your own or tweak something from somewhere else.
I want to make a keyboard like the one that was submitted here a few weeks or months ago that takes these notes into account but I haven't found the time or the motivation. EDIT: this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43255529
I've also seen some people sell and kind of open-source versions in ali express recently for around 60eur pre-assembled. I haven't ordered one so I'm not recommending it, just curious if anyone here ever did.