International politics is revealing itself to operate on the principles of the mafia, where basically everything is leverage and where 'imposing costs' is the primary tool of discipline. Perhaps,'twas ever thus and Trump's main crime is being so crude about it that deniability is no longer plausible
bboygravity · 15m ago
Wait, so you're saying the crackdown on Bolsonaro is fine and ethically 100 percent ok?
Sounds like you know more about it than me.
Can you explain?
tacker2000 · 2m ago
Brazilian politics are a shitshow and neither Lula nor Bolsonaro are saints.
But Trump exerting pressure like this is another level.
user5534762135 · 7m ago
States using courtrooms to punish people who have attempted a coup is hardly unethical, no?
I have to say, it is cute to read your faux outrage over this after Bolsonaro made sure the guy with the best chances to defeat him two elections back would be put into prison in a sham trial right before the election... not persecuting a figure as corrupt and power hungry as Bolsonaro would be 100% ethically wrong.
oporquinho94 · 10m ago
If anything it’s way too mild.
I meant the guy had a concrete plan to topple democracy, assassinate other leaders and bring back dictatorship.
People like this should be thrown into prison for the rest of their lives.
Roark66 · 5m ago
So did Bolsonaro have any basis for claiming the vote against him was rigged? If he did, fair enough. There should be an investigation into the rigging.
If the vote was fair, then there may be an excuse of bad advice. He should've known better, but it's possible someone lied to him.
And a third option, he lied knowing well that the vote was fair. I such case this is an attempt to undermine the state and it should be dealt with harshly. It's o E thing if some journalist makes BS claims. It's another if obe if candidates does so.
I genuinely have no idea which of these is true. I know for a fact the claim "we lost because of fraud" has been popularised by Trump and him basically not getting even a slap on the wrist for it. So it gets used everywhere now.
elcritch · 49m ago
Yep, it always was.
logtempo · 43m ago
cooperation show greater benefits in general.
libertine · 1h ago
It's challenging to comprehend this administration's "Strong with the weak, weak with the strong" approach to geopolitics.
What's the end game here?
madaxe_again · 17m ago
It’s just the same old same old. The U.S. is the country that bought Suharto and saddam hussein to power, that cosied up with the Khmer Rouge and pinochet, that trained and supported bin laden, enabled the contras and Mubarak, etc. - and these are just a handful of recent examples.
The only difference is that these guys are perhaps more brazen about it, as they’ve realised it makes no difference to their electability.
saubeidl · 1h ago
The end game is a club of authoritarians and an end to liberal democracy worldwide.
msgodel · 47m ago
The proponents of liberal democracy should have sold it better.
motorest · 23m ago
> The proponents of liberal democracy should have sold it better.
That sounds an awful lot like victim-blaming.
What's worse is that your blend of comments somehow omits the fact that fascism is not being openly pushed onto people. Instead, fascists frame their intentions as granting them the authority to impose populist policies within the framework of liberal democracies. The problem is that, as Nazi Germany proved, once these fascists are in power they pull a bait-and-switch onto their own supporters.
saubeidl · 23m ago
It is fascist rhetoric taking delight that their authoritarian project has succeeded.
saubeidl · 40m ago
I don't disagree.
Liberal Democracy inevitably leads to corporate capture and then Fascism, as the US is demonstrating beautifully right now.
The ideal form of government is Titoism, with strong repression of regressive forces.
pqtyw · 14m ago
> with strong repression of regressive forces.
Things like freedom of speech or political organizations which are not subservient to the state?
Of course unrestricted freedom of speech can devolve into whatever has been happening in the US for quite a while but still... don't see how "enlightened totalitarianism" is an answer to that.
msgodel · 18m ago
Yeah that's the problem with it. It wasn't communist and aggressive enough. Certainly everyone would have wanted it if it were.
Sounds like you know more about it than me.
Can you explain?
But Trump exerting pressure like this is another level.
I have to say, it is cute to read your faux outrage over this after Bolsonaro made sure the guy with the best chances to defeat him two elections back would be put into prison in a sham trial right before the election... not persecuting a figure as corrupt and power hungry as Bolsonaro would be 100% ethically wrong.
I meant the guy had a concrete plan to topple democracy, assassinate other leaders and bring back dictatorship.
People like this should be thrown into prison for the rest of their lives.
If the vote was fair, then there may be an excuse of bad advice. He should've known better, but it's possible someone lied to him.
And a third option, he lied knowing well that the vote was fair. I such case this is an attempt to undermine the state and it should be dealt with harshly. It's o E thing if some journalist makes BS claims. It's another if obe if candidates does so.
I genuinely have no idea which of these is true. I know for a fact the claim "we lost because of fraud" has been popularised by Trump and him basically not getting even a slap on the wrist for it. So it gets used everywhere now.
What's the end game here?
The only difference is that these guys are perhaps more brazen about it, as they’ve realised it makes no difference to their electability.
That sounds an awful lot like victim-blaming.
What's worse is that your blend of comments somehow omits the fact that fascism is not being openly pushed onto people. Instead, fascists frame their intentions as granting them the authority to impose populist policies within the framework of liberal democracies. The problem is that, as Nazi Germany proved, once these fascists are in power they pull a bait-and-switch onto their own supporters.
Liberal Democracy inevitably leads to corporate capture and then Fascism, as the US is demonstrating beautifully right now.
The ideal form of government is Titoism, with strong repression of regressive forces.
Things like freedom of speech or political organizations which are not subservient to the state?
Of course unrestricted freedom of speech can devolve into whatever has been happening in the US for quite a while but still... don't see how "enlightened totalitarianism" is an answer to that.