> Even when you live and breathe AI, the job titles can feel like a moving target. I can only imagine how mystifying they must be to everyone else.
> Because the field is actively evolving, the language we use keeps changing. Brand new titles appear overnight or, worse, one term means three different things at three different companies.
How can you write that and not realise “maybe this is all made up bullshit and everyone is pulling titles out of their asses to make themselves look more important and knowledgeable than they really are, thus I shouldn’t really be wasting my time giving the subject any credence”? If you’re all in on the field and can’t keep up, why should anyone else care?
gdbsjjdn · 1h ago
I thought this was going to be satire. Software engineer job titles are already pretty bogus (Senior Principal Distinguished Engineer, anyone?), and the AI trend has only created more jobs with nebulous descriptions around "doing AI".
ceejayoz · 1h ago
I wanna just be a webmaster again.
layer8 · 47m ago
How about promptmaster? ;)
trhway · 1m ago
AI snake whisperer.
hervature · 48m ago
I think you mean webmain.
crorella · 14m ago
I saw an "Exalted engineer" once, not kidding.
notatoad · 6m ago
you might not be kidding, hopefully they were.
when you decide titles don't matter and let people choose their own, you get some titles that weren't created in total seriousness.
Yeah, same. I was actually disappointed when I saw that they were taking the titles seriously
nphardon · 1h ago
Still not clear to me what is meant by "ai" now? My sense is that it is a marketing term for LLM. Is that accurate? Do people now consider any ML project to be ai?
dbreunig · 1h ago
You should read the post. You might find the “domain” discussion interesting.
nphardon · 1h ago
That's what I was alluding to, I don't think it defines ai, do you? These pieces seem like classical ML pieces to me plus LLM. Is that ai? Like from a technical standpoint, is it clearly defined?
tomrod · 14m ago
AI is defined by algorithmic decision making. ML, a subset, is about using pattern matching with statistical uncertainty in that decision making. GenAI uses algorithms of classical ML, including deep learning based on neural networks, to encode the decode input to output, jargonized as a prompt. Whether diffusion or next token prediction, the patterns are learned during ML training.
AI is not totally encapsulated by ML. For example, reinforcement learning is often considered distinct in some AI ontologies. Decision rules and similar methods from the 1970s and 1980s are also included though they highlight the algorithmic approach versus the ML side.
There are certainly many terms used and misused by current marketing (especially the bitcoin bro grifters who saw AI as an out of a bad set of assets), but there actually is clarity to the terms if one considers their origins.
I assume if you are applying to AI roles, you use AI to find and possibly apply for you. So, we don't even need to understand what the titles mean because AI can do it for us.
I'm tempted to use /s, but then again...
adenta · 1h ago
Should’ve included “Member of Technical Staff”
jimbobimbo · 1h ago
"Forward Deployed Engineer" is a bodyshop with LLM.
Squeeeez · 6m ago
Weell, you probably don't want to serve "Backwards Deployed Engineers" to your clients
jordanb · 1h ago
Pretty sure this title came from Palentir who got it from the military.
bigiain · 48s ago
"Forward Deployed Software Engineer - This role includes working in locations that include risks of getting shot and possibly killed"
Avicebron · 1h ago
They could just call it "Field Service Tech" like the rest of the universe. I understand using title inflation/deflation to keep pushing the engineer title (and pay expectation) into the dirt, but still, this is dumb.
dbreunig · 1h ago
I also dislike the term. It feels concocted to evoke “tacticool” vibes.
Unless you’re pushing new firmware onto a drone in Ukraine, FDE is stolen valor.
extr · 2h ago
Seems about right. My official title at work is "AI Engineer". What does that mean exactly?
- I'm not a researcher and not fine tuning or deploying models on GPUs
- I have a math/traditional ML background, but my explanation of how transformers, tokenizers, etc work would be hand-wavy at best.
- I'm a "regular engineer" in the sense I'm following many of the standard SWE/SDLC practices in my org.
- I'm exclusively focused on building AI features for our product, I wear a PM hat too.
- I'm pretty tuned in to the latest model releases and capabilities of frontier models, and consider being able to articulate that information part of my job.
- I also use AI heavily to produce code, which is helpfully a pretty good way to get a sense for model capabilities.
Do I deserve a special job title...maybe? I think there's definitely an argument that "AI Engineering" really isn't a special thing, and considering how much of my day to day is pure integration work with the actual product, I can see that. OTOH, part of my job and my value at work is very product based. I pay a lot of attention to what other people in the industry are doing, new model releases, and how others are building things, since it's such a new area and there's no "standard playbook" yet for many things.
I actually quite enjoy it since there's a ton of opportunity to be creative. When AI first started becoming big I thought about doing the other direction - leveraging my math/ML background to get deeper into GPUs and MLOps/research-lite kind of work. Instead I went in a more producty direction, which I don't regret yet.
nlawalker · 46m ago
The author’s definitions suggest you should have “Applied” in your title, which I like, but my impression is that “applied” roles so vastly outnumber “creation of models” roles globally that it’s actually the latter that would benefit from a modifier. For now, you have to rely on context (mostly the nature of the company’s primary output) when trying to interpret something like a job posting or an acquaintance’s title.
andrew_lettuce · 2h ago
We all know the AI part is largely meaningless because of the hype and nonsense, but what defines you as an engineer? When you consider that classical engineers are responsible for the correctness of their work, combining it with AI seems like a joke
potatolicious · 2h ago
> "When you consider that classical engineers are responsible for the correctness of their work"
Woah hang on, I think this betrays a severe misunderstanding of what engineers do.
FWIW I was trained as a classical engineer (mechanical), but pretty much just write code these days. But I did have a past life as a not-SWE.
Most classical engineering fields deal with probabilistic system components all of the time. In fact I'd go as far as to say that inability to deal with probabilistic components is disqualifying from many engineering endeavors.
Process engineers for example have to account for human error rates. On a given production line with humans in a loop, the operators will sometimes screw up. Designing systems to detect these errors (which are highly probabilistic!), mitigate them, and reduce the occurrence rates of such errors is a huge part of the job.
Likewise even for regular mechanical engineers, there are probabilistic variances in manufacturing tolerances. Your specs are always given with confidence intervals (this metal sheet is 1mm thick +- 0.05mm) because of this. All of the designs you work on specifically account for this (hence safety margins!). The ways in which these probabilities combine and interact is a serious field of study.
Software engineering is unlike traditional engineering disciplines in that for most of its lifetime it's had the luxury of purely deterministic expectations. This is not true in nearly every other type of engineering.
If anything the advent of ML has introduced this element to software, and the ability to actually work with probabilistic outcomes is what separates those who are serious about this stuff vs. demoware hot air blowers.
whatevertrevor · 1h ago
You're right in a descriptive manner, but I also think the parent comment's point is about correctness and not determinism.
In other engineering fields correctness-related-guarantees can often be phrased in probabilistic ways, e.g. "This bridge will withstand a 10-year flood event but not a 100-year flood event", but underneath those guarantees are hard deterministic load estimates with appropriate error margins.
And I think that's where the core disagreement between you and the parent comment lies. I think they're trying to say AI generated code-pushers are often getting fuzzy on speccing out the behavior guarantees of their own software. In some ways the software industry has _always_ been bad at this, despite working with deterministic math, surprise software bugs are plentiful, but vibe-coding takes this to another level.
(This is my best-case charitable understanding of what they're saying, but also happens to be where I stand)
Fellshard · 55m ago
This seems to me patently absurd, because LLMs are not part of the probabilistic environment of the domain you're engineering; rather, you're injecting new probabilistic inputs into your system. That seems to me to be a wholly different category, and wildly misrepresents how an engineer is supposed to operate and think.
extr · 1h ago
Nicely said, I'm going to borrow some language here. I've talked a little to my coworkers about how it's possible the future of SWE looks more like "build a complex system with AI and test it to death to make sure it fits inside the performance envelope you require".
dbreunig · 1h ago
I will be thinking about this comment for a bit. Thanks for this perspective!
simonw · 1h ago
This comment is excellent.
extr · 2h ago
Hard to tell what you're even trying to say here. I am obviously responsible for the correctness of my work. "AI Engineer" does not generally mean "AI-Assisted Engineer", thought that was clear from my post.
tamimio · 2h ago
Who cares? The word "engineer" is meaningless now and anyone can be a self-proclaimed engineer whenever they feel like it. Will anyone double check or even reject you for an engineering job when you are not? Absolutely not! Take a bootcamp, submit plenty of PRs correcting typos, and pass the interview with the help of AI and you basically made it, dreams come true!!
glitchc · 2h ago
Yeah the term "engineer" has been diluted into oblivion, and we only have ourselves to blame for not protecting it.
GLdRH · 2h ago
In German you're not even an engineer if you don't sometimes wear a hard hat or hold a screwdriver.
fakedang · 13m ago
In Dubai, the poor underpaid folks cleaning the roads and gutters late at night are called "Cleaning Engineers" and "Garden Engineers". It's honestly sad, almost a mockery.
tamimio · 2h ago
Agree 100%, even blue collar workers guard their profession. Hell, I was talking to a friend and they rejected her for a retail job because she had never worked in retail before. Engineering on the other hand has zero gatekeeping - it's a sign spinner job right now. Just do a few humiliation rituals like daily standup and you're the perfect candidate!
apwell23 · 2h ago
> I pay a lot of attention to what other people in the industry are doing, new model releases, and how others are building things,
what do you think of recent MIT news that 95% gen ai projects don't do anything valuable at all ?
Nevermark · 1h ago
> what do you think of recent MIT news that 95% gen ai projects don't do anything valuable at all ?
Worth noting that a project that ends up “doing nothing” isn’t the same as a project that had/created no value.
Even some projects that in hindsight were deterministic lemons.
Assuming compute resources continue scaling up, and architectures keep improving, AI change now has an everything, everywhere, all the time, scope. Failing fast is necessarily going to have a substantial dimension.
extr · 2h ago
Sounds kind of aggressive but probably the number is up there.
> Because the field is actively evolving, the language we use keeps changing. Brand new titles appear overnight or, worse, one term means three different things at three different companies.
How can you write that and not realise “maybe this is all made up bullshit and everyone is pulling titles out of their asses to make themselves look more important and knowledgeable than they really are, thus I shouldn’t really be wasting my time giving the subject any credence”? If you’re all in on the field and can’t keep up, why should anyone else care?
when you decide titles don't matter and let people choose their own, you get some titles that weren't created in total seriousness.
AI is not totally encapsulated by ML. For example, reinforcement learning is often considered distinct in some AI ontologies. Decision rules and similar methods from the 1970s and 1980s are also included though they highlight the algorithmic approach versus the ML side.
There are certainly many terms used and misused by current marketing (especially the bitcoin bro grifters who saw AI as an out of a bad set of assets), but there actually is clarity to the terms if one considers their origins.
I'm tempted to use /s, but then again...
Unless you’re pushing new firmware onto a drone in Ukraine, FDE is stolen valor.
- I'm not a researcher and not fine tuning or deploying models on GPUs
- I have a math/traditional ML background, but my explanation of how transformers, tokenizers, etc work would be hand-wavy at best.
- I'm a "regular engineer" in the sense I'm following many of the standard SWE/SDLC practices in my org.
- I'm exclusively focused on building AI features for our product, I wear a PM hat too.
- I'm pretty tuned in to the latest model releases and capabilities of frontier models, and consider being able to articulate that information part of my job.
- I also use AI heavily to produce code, which is helpfully a pretty good way to get a sense for model capabilities.
Do I deserve a special job title...maybe? I think there's definitely an argument that "AI Engineering" really isn't a special thing, and considering how much of my day to day is pure integration work with the actual product, I can see that. OTOH, part of my job and my value at work is very product based. I pay a lot of attention to what other people in the industry are doing, new model releases, and how others are building things, since it's such a new area and there's no "standard playbook" yet for many things.
I actually quite enjoy it since there's a ton of opportunity to be creative. When AI first started becoming big I thought about doing the other direction - leveraging my math/ML background to get deeper into GPUs and MLOps/research-lite kind of work. Instead I went in a more producty direction, which I don't regret yet.
Woah hang on, I think this betrays a severe misunderstanding of what engineers do.
FWIW I was trained as a classical engineer (mechanical), but pretty much just write code these days. But I did have a past life as a not-SWE.
Most classical engineering fields deal with probabilistic system components all of the time. In fact I'd go as far as to say that inability to deal with probabilistic components is disqualifying from many engineering endeavors.
Process engineers for example have to account for human error rates. On a given production line with humans in a loop, the operators will sometimes screw up. Designing systems to detect these errors (which are highly probabilistic!), mitigate them, and reduce the occurrence rates of such errors is a huge part of the job.
Likewise even for regular mechanical engineers, there are probabilistic variances in manufacturing tolerances. Your specs are always given with confidence intervals (this metal sheet is 1mm thick +- 0.05mm) because of this. All of the designs you work on specifically account for this (hence safety margins!). The ways in which these probabilities combine and interact is a serious field of study.
Software engineering is unlike traditional engineering disciplines in that for most of its lifetime it's had the luxury of purely deterministic expectations. This is not true in nearly every other type of engineering.
If anything the advent of ML has introduced this element to software, and the ability to actually work with probabilistic outcomes is what separates those who are serious about this stuff vs. demoware hot air blowers.
In other engineering fields correctness-related-guarantees can often be phrased in probabilistic ways, e.g. "This bridge will withstand a 10-year flood event but not a 100-year flood event", but underneath those guarantees are hard deterministic load estimates with appropriate error margins.
And I think that's where the core disagreement between you and the parent comment lies. I think they're trying to say AI generated code-pushers are often getting fuzzy on speccing out the behavior guarantees of their own software. In some ways the software industry has _always_ been bad at this, despite working with deterministic math, surprise software bugs are plentiful, but vibe-coding takes this to another level.
(This is my best-case charitable understanding of what they're saying, but also happens to be where I stand)
what do you think of recent MIT news that 95% gen ai projects don't do anything valuable at all ?
Worth noting that a project that ends up “doing nothing” isn’t the same as a project that had/created no value.
Even some projects that in hindsight were deterministic lemons.
Assuming compute resources continue scaling up, and architectures keep improving, AI change now has an everything, everywhere, all the time, scope. Failing fast is necessarily going to have a substantial dimension.