When DEF CON partners with the U.S. Army

108 OgsyedIE 101 8/13/2025, 1:33:45 PM jackpoulson.substack.com ↗

Comments (101)

sylens · 3h ago
Defcon is no longer a counterculture conference, and arguably hasn't been for a while. It's a place for security professionals to go to hang out in Vegas for a few days on their company's dime, or to extend their stay after Black Hat.

The conference has gotten too big for its own good. It now inhabits the Las Vegas Convention Center, which is less convenient than when it was in one of the hotels (or multiple hotels clustered together). The one positive of the LVCC is that it has a ton of room but there are still issues with things like sound equipment that plague the villages and their talks/workshops.

px43 · 2h ago
This was my 23rd DEFCON, and was just as counterculture as it was decades ago if you know where to go, and don't get distracted by the big pretty signs. DEFCON has always been about feds, policymakers, corpos, kids, and straight up black hat criminals partying together and shaping the future of infosec.

The author of the article decided to wander down the Military Industrial Complex track, and seems to be complaining that it had too much Army stuff. I didn't see any of that this year, because that's not what interests me. I met up with a large number of cipherpunks and activists that I don't get to see very often, and had some extremly productive conversations regarding various projects we're working on for the next year.

Palomides · 1h ago
"it's counterculture if you ignore all the military/mass surveillance stuff" doesn't strike me as a strong defense
giantg2 · 8m ago
If that's your mindset, the internet must be similarly disappointing to you. In either domain, you can select where you want to go and what you want to do.
tucnak · 1h ago
Kool-Aid man lives in the world of corporate logos...
busterarm · 2h ago
As a longtime attendee myself, this is absolutely true.

Also, DEFCON and DT specifically have not shifted anywhere. A large demographic of attendees shifted hard to the left, mirroring our culture in general. They are also not "counterculture" as these are mainstream/televised points of view.

I had to stop dealing with certain parts/people of DEFCON and infosec in general because of this intense noise. That's not pegging myself as being on the right, it's just that my DEFCON experience has always been about expanding my worldview and fun... this very loud and influential group isn't about either of those things.

mattmanser · 1h ago
No where else in the world would describe anything in American politics as going hard left.

All of your politics and news has been swinging hard right for over a decade.

StefanBatory · 1h ago
If you don't mind, I have a genuine question. (as in, I'm not looking for a fight and I won't comment furthermore even if I can't agree.)

But genuinely, what do you define by saying that American culture has shifted hard to the left and what do you define by left.

I am really not looking into fight, but that's not a take I've heard often and I want to hear you out.

somenameforme · 11m ago
Not the GP, but I feel the same. The reason is that my views haven't really changed, yet somehow my political positioning went from quite liberal to something most people, below a certain age, would consider conservative. I value: free speech, equality of opportunity, antiwar, anti political correctness, anti megacorp, and view the liberty of the individual mattering vastly more than than dictates of authority/hierarchy.

More generally, I think politics has shifted such that left/right is no longer meaningful, as people tend to be much more split on libertarian/authoritarian world views - particularly on the degree to which accredited individuals ought be able to impose their views on society in an effort to 'tweak' people's behaviors. That nuance, more or less, immediately leads to shifting winds on the issues I mentioned.

anonym29 · 21m ago
I am not the person you are responding to, but I think the ground reality is nuanced. What follows is my opinion / perspective, which I do not assert as irrefutable fact, nor as the only opinion / perspective which should be considered.

1. Politics in the US have become more polarized, but a historical view shows this as more of a reversion to the mean than a novel phenomenon, as we are increasingly distanced from a period of greater economic prosperity for large swathes of the middle class, which seemed to have a (now disappearing) byproduct of a degree of psychological satiation with "big picture" concerns.

2. There is a documented tendency for the political left, at least in the US, to accept and tolerate a much narrower range of thought, that is to say, the left has a much smaller Overton Window, than the political right in the US, who mostly seem unified only around opposition to the policies of the political left. (https://bpspsychub.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bjso....)

2a. I suspect, but do not necessary assert as fact, that the above effect on the left may be partially explained by a rigid adherence to the paradox of tolerance, which itself demands an unwillingness to tolerate people who hold intolerant ideas, views, or beliefs, even if those people do not act on those ideas, views, or beliefs to meaningfully practice intolerance. The end result, from my perspective as someone who fits cleanly in neither political camp (I'm more of a libertarian than anything else) is that the left makes little to no room for allies and increasingly engages in litmus testing with an end goal of ostracizing and socially shunning even LGBTQ+ people who don't fit neatly into the smaller Overton Window. As an example, it is considered intolerable by many on the left to merely be vocally supportive of adult LGBTQ+ rights, while expressing discomfort with the idea of children being exposed to pride parades with fully naked adults embracing all manner of sexual diversity and kinks, or discomfort with the idea of support irreversible chemical gender affirmation therapy for minors on grounds of bodily autonomy / age of consent mechanisms. Meanwhile, to the surprise of many on the political left, large swathes of the political right (though not the most extreme fringes), in my lived experience as an LGBTQ person in Texas (which to be fair, may not be entirely representative of the rest of the country), hold more of a "live at let live" philosophy that, paradoxically, is more tolerant of LGBTQ+ persons with nuanced views than the political left is. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)

I think as the emotional investment of typical political partisans increases, there is a widespread perception of hostility or outrage from the political left at nuanced positions that are nominally but insufficiently progressive, like the one in the example above. Anecdata for this might include the perspective of Bill Maher, who was once considered to be subversively progressive, then gradually seen as "center left", and is now perceived by many on the left as "right of center", in spite of a rock-solid track record of being notably left of Republicans on almost every issue.

To be clear, I'm not trying to assert normative views that either side is "right", morally superior or inferior to one another, just attempting to offer my perspective on what I think the underlying mechanisms driving the disconnect between perceptions of the political system itself (which is increasingly dominated by right-of-center figures in all three branches of the federal government, particularly at the SCOTUS level in the judiciary), and perceptions of cultural values. That cultural perception is probably further strengthened by widespread, rapid, and vocal adoption of DEI values across almost all institutional settings (academia, corporate America, public sector, even institutions that are traditionally conceptualized as right of center, like Wall Street firms) following the protests over the death of George Floyd; the relatively swift mainstream acceptance of LGBTQ+ rights (marriage equality went from fringe to mainstream in under two decades); climate change moved from "environmental issue" to a mainstream economic/social concern in roughly the same period; social media amplification of progressive voices and causes, including, at times; coordination between left-leaning administrations and social media companies to suppress right-leaning perspectives, some of which are now widely acknowledged to have likely been true (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files), to name a few large changes over both the last two decades and the last five years or so.

And again, I'm not suggesting that any of these changes were good or bad, I'm not trying to assert a normative framing one way or another, just attempting to dissect the mechanisms of the perception itself.

giantg2 · 10m ago
"still issues with things like sound equipment"

For the $500 entry fee you would think they could provide earphones and someone would hack together an app that would let you listen through those earphones based on some sort of proximity detection. No doubt the first year someone would find a vulnerability in it and would need parallel deployment to the existing infrastructure, but still.

tedivm · 2h ago
Once they scared off the people running the Sky Talks, which were always awesome, and messed with groups like the lockpicking folks ability to fundraise, I think the idea of it being a hacker con really died and it turned into just another corporate convention.
px43 · 2h ago
Skytalks happened this year and was better attended than ever. Getting a seat was extremely competitive, people lined up for several hours for a single talk token. I would have loved to go to some, but unfortunately there was a ton of other stuff I wanted to see so I didn't have time to stand in line.

They were a side conference to a side conference, but the structure let them run things the way they wanted, which is important.

jayess · 2h ago
That Skytalks still requires masking is absurd. I saw the organizers at DEFCON walking around with no masks. The last skytalks at DEFCON a couple of years ago was pretty bad anyways, really disappointing.
ferguess_k · 3h ago
Would CCC and Recon be better? TBH I never understand why people (not companies) need to go to Vegas. It's expensive, corrupting and hot during the summers. Montreal is a much affordable place.
ecshafer · 3h ago
Vegas (and Orlando) are probably the two cheapest places to travel to in North America. Hotels and flights are both plentiful and cheap. Before Covid you could get like $60 a night hotels on the strip and $150 flights.
bluedino · 1h ago
You still can, depends on where you go and where you stay. I'm seeing $300 for two nights and round trip flights from the other side of the USA right now if you don't mind staying at the Flamingo, Luxor, or Linq. Add $50 for something like Park MGM or Paris.
giantg2 · 1m ago
Are you finding those in a package deal? What platform are you using?

Just curious as I didn't find many package deals that were much cheaper than finding each individually. I was just using stuff like Expedia and similar.

ferguess_k · 2h ago
Ah I don't about know about that, thought it is extra expensive. Guess summer is actually the low season due to weather?
woodruffw · 2h ago
Strictly speaking, I don't think Vegas has a low season. It's cheap to visit and stay in because they bilk you on everything else.
Kirby64 · 2h ago
The time between Thanksgiving and Christmas is historically slow. Not much going on then, and things are quite cheap usually. Weather is also not miserable.
Fomite · 2h ago
Getting people to Vegas is heavily subsidized under the assumption that while they are there they will spend rather freely.
chupasaurus · 2h ago
The summer is a "dead" season for that specific reason.
__alexander · 2h ago
CCC would be better but REcon is kind of niche because it’s focus is reverse engineering and not “hacking”in general.
aakkaakk · 2h ago
CCC still have this crazy way of selling tickets, where you cannot know more than month in advance if you will be able to get a ticket, i.e. impossible to book hotel/flight that late.
tete · 2h ago
To be fair CCC is theoretically primarily a German club with an event that is overbooked by so so many people, all of that is done by people NOT being paid for anything (from security to health emergency to infrastructure, ticket checking, audio, recording, etc.).

I wouldn't call it crazy that a pure volunteer event that constantly has to switch places because they use up ALL available space of their venues does have a ticketing system that is still better than the one of a lot of big pop stars.

It probably also keeps commercialization down to a minimum.

Yes, sucks that what you describe isn't possible, but I think in perspective it's not exactly "crazy".

It's still always sold out with whole conference areas and more used up.

sugarpimpdorsey · 3h ago
Something something discreet hookers and a company credit card.
ferguess_k · 3h ago
I thought they are more into techs.
tucnak · 29m ago
Defcon is a "joke" compared to CCC.
dogleash · 2h ago
Defcon went fed when Jeff Moss went fed. But the crowd size has done way more to change the vibe. The 30% crowd post-covid year was a short return to old defcon.
ramesh31 · 3h ago
>Defcon is no longer a counterculture conference, and arguably hasn't been for a while.

This happens to literally every convention ever, not surprising at all. The broader question is is something like the original spirit of DefCon even still possible? The industry (and the stakes) are so much higher now that it seems impossible.

sylens · 3h ago
It is but you have to intentionally keep it small and limit tickets. I think one of the issues that Defcon has is that they just don't cap tickets; historically they could not, because you could only buy a badge with cash so there was no way of predicting how many people would show up.
woodruffw · 3h ago
I don't think it's really a matter of limited attendance. Smaller hacker conferences in the US are not much different in terms of baseline acceptance of government/defense presence. It's more of a cultural thing, and not a new one.

(That's not to say that there aren't conferences that are explicitly anti-MIC, because there are. But if you just sample by size, I suspect you'll find no correlation there.)

ajsnigrutin · 2h ago
You do 10 things at a small conference, everyone says "we need more of X{0}..X{9}", you have more things next year, more people, everyone wants more of whatever, more people, more problems with more people (security, cost, sponsors,..), more attention of mainstream media, more people next year, more push for politics, more people, more issues with more people, etc., and in the end, you get a boring business conference like many others.

I'm pretty sure that each of the niches could make their own conference now, at some small venue where a 100, 200, 500 people would come... SNES hacking and development? Sure, a small, really nice conference... but then someone would want NES too, and N64, and sega, and PS1, and corporate sponsors, and you end up with E3 instead of 50 retro developers and 150 curious people doing interesting stuff.

CalRobert · 3h ago
Maybe What Hackers Yearn or CCC?
AndrewKemendo · 3h ago
CCC might be able to survive because it’s European and multi lingual
adornKey · 2h ago
Not sure about that. I recently organised a workshop on a CCC-Event. I think there were more transsexual DJs on the Event than people interested in professional IT. There are still some hackers left, but CCC events are more and more turning into events of the gay party scene.

It's a bit harsh to say that the CCC-scene is going insane - but it's a solid fact that last year on the event people gave more talks about their mental illnesses and feelings than about real hacker-stuff...

sunaookami · 2h ago
CCC is not counterculture for ~10 years now. They have also become way too big and the vast majority of presentations are (extremely left-leaning) politics.
shazbotter · 2h ago
Hacker culture has always been left leaning, lol. Open source is a grand anarchist experiment.

You expect hackers to be like, "we love capitalism! We love strong hierarchies!"? Don't be daft.

sugarpimpdorsey · 1h ago
> You expect hackers to be like, "we love capitalism! We love strong hierarchies!"?

You should ask the old-schoolers, if they can hear you over the roar of the air conditioning in their cushy corporate offices and the engines of their Volvos.

When all you have left is petty political bitching, the conference has lost its meaning, it's just a Reddit meetup at that point.

ecshafer · 2h ago
We are on a message board run by a VC firm.
krapp · 2h ago
Those aren't hackers, those are the capitalists that hollowed out hacker culture and are wearing it like a skinsuit to blend in among real humans.
BolexNOLA · 2h ago
Whenever I see vitriolic comments like this describing the board the user is posting on, I legitimately wonder why they are sticking around. It can’t be that bad without you implicitly saying “…which is fine.”
krapp · 2h ago
I stick around for the remnant of actual hacker culture and what's left of the interesting non-startup non-AI conversations to be had around here. It's fine for the moment.
sugarpimpdorsey · 1h ago
You have it backwards. This board began its life as Startup News. There are no remnants of which you speak.
busterarm · 1h ago
I've been in this scene 40+ years and for every Emmanuel Goldstein-type there's also a Dale Gribble.

At least dale never fucked kids.

tekla · 1h ago
> Hacker culture has always been left leaning

No it hasn't. It started as counterculture. 90's hacker ethos might as well make you a fascist these days.

esseph · 2h ago
> (extremely left-leaning) politics

This is like complaining about water being wet. Hacker culture has always been anti-right wing.

sneak · 3h ago
> This happens to literally every convention ever, not surprising at all.

The CCC would never.

Europe, for all its authoritarianism and infringements of human rights (even in relatively liberal places like Germany) still seems to be trying to not backslide into full-on military-industrial complex like the US is/has.

lenerdenator · 3h ago
If you honestly think that they're not either backsliding into the full-on military-industrial complex or benefiting from the American military-industrial complex, I have some nice ocean-front property in Kansas City to sell you.

EDIT:

If you don't believe me, ask the USMC about their nice new H&K service rifles. Did we need to do that? No, we could have thrown a nice piston upper on M16 lowers, but that doesn't keep the bier flowing in Oberndorf am Neckar. Or ask someone in the Pentagon about their partners at BAE.

sugarpimpdorsey · 3h ago
That's easy to do when you have the US on speed dial.
orwin · 2h ago
I mean, in the last 50 years, US called Italy, Germany more than the reverse. And if you don't count logistical units, US has France on speed dial, not the reverse. The one time France asked the US something military-wise, Obama refused.
busterarm · 1h ago
France doesn't need to call anyone, they have spies everywhere. They're the world leader in industrial espionage with a few hundred-years head start over everyone else.

And also don't forget they're the second largest global arms exporter after the United States. Which is amazing when you realize they only have one manufacturer (Airbus) in the global top 15...

okasaki · 3h ago
To do what? Blow up our pipelines? Use us as staging for bullshit invasions?
colechristensen · 2h ago
I went, while I enjoyed myself this year I feel it's gotten too big and too disorganized. Also I went to a couple of talks that would seemingly have been bread and butter talks for defcon that were very sparsely attended and I just wondered where everybody was.

This might just be FOMO with the organizers. It's probably time for DefCon to drop in person registrations, get smaller, and return to a hotel. Villages and village talks need to be better curated and basically the focus needs to be tightened up.

busterarm · 1h ago
DEFCON talks are for watching on Youtube when they get uploaded weeks/months from now. It's always been about contests/challenges and partying. It's a con of cons.
colechristensen · 1h ago
Talk attendance was much higher the last time I went, but that might have been 10 years ago.
anonfordays · 44m ago
>Defcon is no longer a counterculture conference

Being in tech and partnering with the US Army on 2025 is counterculture.

dogman144 · 30m ago
Not a new topic - few years ago, the Jen Easterly-era CISA made a hard recruiting pitch at defcon. Patriotism and service-messaging one might recognize from their own time in the military.

What was surprising was the intense applause from a hacker con to this pitch.

Given what was to come, also notably absent discussion from the audience or speaker about how working for CISA did or did not mean working for DHS. Assurances of firm segmentation on this aspect from speakers after the formal talk ended were similarly a bit weak.

Not that anything was inherently bad about her recruiting pitch, but for a hackercon, it was a bit close to the flagpole. And notably that CISA crew is “no longer at CISA” and under prosecution, or intense social pressure, or otherwise.

Feels worth evaluating!

tucnak · 23m ago
Spooks have been doing keynotes for a few years now. The so-called hackers are on toes, because deep down they wish to be daddy'd up to get to do some silly, secret-type shit. Contrary to the past, when spooks despised computer people (that's how cypherpunk came about.) On the other hand, Clearances are not what they used to be, too; every fart having to do with computers, analysis, collection is classed TS by default.
mi100hael · 1h ago
When I went to Defcon a few years back, one of the speakers started his talk by saying:

"When I first started coming to Defcon, it was full of hackers and we played spot-the-fed. Now you're all feds and we play spot-the-hacker."

brohee · 2h ago
Hammond didn't protest during a talk but clearly after its end if https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1mlaw4s/jeremy_hamm... is to be believed. And removed by venue guards not DefCon goons.

And he seems really well loved, as evidenced by https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1mlaw4s/comment/n7p...

JohnMakin · 1h ago
fuck the US military industrial complex and anyone who supports it
saintjavelina · 1h ago
Even the parts supplying Ukraine?
420official · 19m ago
If all we did was supply arms to our allies who are under attack without making egregious profit off of it, then yeah I think folks would feel better about the MIC, but as you're well aware we are only granting small shipments of weapons along with big demands including currently asking Ukraine to give up it's land to russia. We also have a long history of giving weapons to sow chaos around the world leading directly to things like isis and others. Arguably worse than that, we're now using these military weapons to suppress liberty in American cities.
shazbotter · 2h ago
Damn, DEF CON used to be a real one. It's a damn shame to see this happen to a group of hackers.

I'm sure other venues and community events will take up the mantle given time, but it's still a bummer to see an event that used to be so fiercely independent out here cheering on the feds.

cushychicken · 3h ago
Is it really surprising that DEF CON went where the money was?

Most cybersecurity work in the US, by volume, rolls up to one of about five organizations - all of whom are US government entities.

Most cybersecurity work has nothing to do with keeping Russian bot farms out of outdated WordPress installs.

HamsterDan · 2h ago
Articles like this are a stark reminder of just how disconnected the internet is from reality. Survey 100 people at random and you'd be hard pressed to find a single one who would be offended if their employer partnered with the military. But the internet is filled with loudmouths who insist there's no reason to have a military and that anybody who partners with the military in any capacity is an evil fascist.
zachrip · 2h ago
Where are you getting this claim from?
Tarball10 · 1h ago
>Most Americans continue to express positive views of the military: 60% say it has a positive effect, while 36% say its effect is negative.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/02/01/the-u-s-mili...

barbazoo · 52m ago
Based on those numbers I’d be surprised to not “find a single one who would be offended if their employer partnered with the military”.
OrvalWintermute · 1h ago
If we hadn't gone to Iraq, Afghanistan, and supported the Israelis, I imagine these numbers would be much higher with the young.
ixtli · 1h ago
This isnt anywhere near my experience at all. People don't like empire and if you look around your life and think everyone you see would be pleased to do military contracts you're in a ( really disconcerting ) bubble.
saintjavelina · 1h ago
I don’t like empire either, especially the big American empire pushing drag queen story hour and child sexual mutilation. I’m glad to have an ally in the push against their gender-industrial complex. “Transition” is explicitly sold to hospitals by pharmaceutical companies as a highly profitable industry with captive customers. If you look around and see no one who objects to this, you’re more than likely in an imperial cultural bubble.
420official · 28m ago
Sure, I can agree that companies using gender dysphoria as only a way to increase profit is a bad thing, and I recognize that pharmaceutical companies are this way with _every_ drug and not just ones that benefit people. However I do disagree with the idea that people should be stripped of their right to free speech if you disagree with their statements, or stripped of their right to choose how to live their own lives.

I would offer that this is entirely different than the lack of choice we have in regard to how our government uses the military to "spread democracy at the point of a gun" while taking more and more of our tax dollars and liberty without improving our lives or tackling the problems that ordinary Americans face.

lux-lux-lux · 6m ago
What on earth are you talking about?
busterarm · 1h ago
Everyone living in a western nation today is a direct beneficiary of empire.

Ask them to swap their standard of living with that of someone living without the influence of empire and you'll get nothing but hard stares.

esseph · 1h ago
Now realize there are 8 billion people on the planet, and the 95.6% of people are... really tired, and really upset with the 4.4% of that empire.
OrvalWintermute · 1h ago
The US federal budget goes to:

(based on FY 2025 budget proposal )

category, billions, % of federal spending

Social Security 1,543 21.2%

Medicare 936 12.9%

Medicaid 589 8.1%

Food Stamps (SNAP) 94 1.3%

WIC 8 0.1%

Section 8 33 0.5%

Defense 900 12.4%

Other Entitlement Programs 1,168 16.1%

Other Agencies (Non-Defense Discretionary) 1,029 14.2%

bigyabai · 1h ago
250 years ago, every American was a beneficiary of slavery too. Help remind me how that one ended, will you?
saintjavelina · 1h ago
Slavery in America and across most of the rest of the world was ended directly and decisively by the American and British empires, respectively, often over the protests of indigenous authorities.
esseph · 2h ago
Hacker culture is and has always been anti-fascist and anti-capitalist by nature, at least the version that grew in the west. It was an offshoot of hippie culture in the 60s, grew in the 80s phreaking scene, and highly entangled with open source in the early to mid 90s.
drdrek · 1h ago
I think anti Fascist is way too narrow, it's anti establishment, any establishment period. Anything anyone with power does is bad, that's the mentality for 50 years.
saintjavelina · 58m ago
Thanks for another stark reminder of how comments here are disconnected from reality. Most IRL are tired of people who call everything fascist and froth at the mouth about “anti-fascism.”
ixtli · 1h ago
Exactly: we live in a capitalist society which has been in decline into fascism for generations which makes the counter culture the opposite of those things.

I get the sense that because people can think of a few examples of mercenary security people or a few white supremacist groups that "hack" that this is somehow a refutation. It's not. You know about these people because 1) they usually are mean and suck and 2) they are outliers.

As you say: the phreaking / hacking / hobbist subcultures have always been collectivist by nature and the product of those subcultures will always chafe at the profit motive.

qwertytyyuu · 1h ago
Whelp might as well just only go to black hat now
cess11 · 3h ago
It's not exactly new. Mudge is the current CIO of DARPA, and other people around the L0pht went on similar trajectories. Feds openly participating in DEFCON is itself a rather old flashpoint.

Way back in the times of hippies and yippies many were subsequently recruited by the empire. While he was troubled in other ways Abbie Hoffmann was, as far as I know, a notable exception.

theginger · 2h ago
The x files def con was always a defense conference
stickfigure · 3h ago
I can't help but think that Putin and Xi must feel very happy about the Western strain of extreme pacifism that encourages smart hackers to eschew military applications entirely. European hackers in particular can just look east to get a glimpse of the future.

The world has changed.

mathandstuff · 2h ago
The issue isn't software developers working with the military. It is a matter of offensive U.S. military operations and the associated self-serving geopolitics being treated as countercultural.
asoneth · 2h ago
> Western strain of extreme pacifism

While there certainly are some Western hackers who eschew all military applications because of their extreme pacifism, the examples in the article (e.g. pro-Palestinian activists) are not necessarily pacifist. I'd describe them more as out of alignment with their country's current governments, or perhaps actively aligned against them.

And given recent (and not-so-recent) behavior of the US government, I don't think it's irrational for hacker in the US to conclude that their own government presents a greater threat to their freedom than Putin or Xi. (I don't necessarily agree, I just don't think it's an irrational conclusion.)

chupasaurus · 2h ago
Guess who cooperates with any security conferences in Russia that aren't abysmal and how many smart hackers attend those.

The world hasn't changed.

sebstefan · 2h ago
>Western strain of extreme pacifism that encourages smart hackers to eschew military applications entirely

Not what people are saying. There would be little noise if there were talks at defcon about Ukrainian cyberwarfare or hacking Russian military infrastructure.

This is about the united states military industrial complex. Can you even point out a military that did more harm to the world at large in the last 50 years? How many dead? How many human right violations?

The head of the NSA as well, post-snowden? Come on.

psunavy03 · 1h ago
The only reason there still is a Ukraine is the US so-called "military industrial complex." And guess who the ooga-booga scary NSA is probably giving intelligence products to, or at least probably was until January?
sebstefan · 1h ago
The flimsy support for Ukraine doesn't erase 50 years of catastrophic effects of USA interventionism

You can cherry pick a few good things. Ukraine, Kosovo, Korea, maybe Libya, the first Gulf war, the Berlin air-lift

Then you come back to reality. The war on terror, El Salvador, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Laos, arming the Saudis, Irak, Afghanistan

If you engage in 50 or so interventions and all except one fail miserably, often in horrifying ways that result in the deaths of millions of people, it’s really hard to maintain that that’s a good record.

psunavy03 · 1h ago
OK, so we're just going to handwave away any positive impact the US has had in preserving the rules-based international order for the past 70 years and amplify every US failure, while not even taking into consideration the alternatives like Russia and China. Keep living in your bubble.
ecshafer · 2h ago
Who do you think are the ones actually supporting Ukrainian cybersecurity and hacking Russian military? Ill give you a hint they are the ones sitting in office parks in maryland writing software for the NSA and DOD.
sebstefan · 2h ago
It doesn't erase the last 50 years

Broken clocks, all that.

State of the clock pending what's going to come out in the news about Orange guy's meeting with Putin where they are discussing the surrender of Ukrainian territories without Ukraine's opinion.

tete · 2h ago
Ah yeah that "extreme pacifism" that has grotesque ideas like people shouldn't murder other people just because their governments think so.

How dare them being opposed to that poor military sector, that nobody ever speaks up for. Completely forgotten by politics and media, nobody ever takes their side and see how in reality they make the world a much better place.

After hundreds of thousands of deaths and daily news about one war crime chasing another by all sides, daily uncovered cruel lies, essentially all wars being illegal and not defensive according to UN laws. Laws that the very countries that now break them established. Only not being sanctioned because of vetoes by these countries.

And all of them being lobbied against by some nerds meeting in their spare time to follow their interests. Those horrible, horrible extreme pacifists!

moc_was_wronged · 1h ago
In the US:

* employers can rescind job offers over 20-year-old social media posts.

* rents are sky high and constantly increasing.

* health insurers routinely kill people if they are deemed too expensive to be alive.

* a literal fascist rapist billionaire is now president.

Consequently, we have a society no one will defend. It’s not that people like Putin or Xi. What Putin is doing in Ukraine is unforgivable, even if the West is partially at fault too.

The human rights issues of US-led capitalism have always been severe, but 50 years ago there were redeeming qualities, at least domestically. These days, those are gone, and I don’t blame Gen Z for deciding there is nothing about our society to defend.

OrvalWintermute · 2h ago
There are two key truths:

Hackerdom has always had a relationship with Defense, Intelligence & LE.

Most hackers are deeply benevolent and care greatly about the world, and insecurity at large, mostly fostered by Business.

Building relationships with defense & intel are often the best avenues towards moving towards a more secure future, working within the system for positive change. Our way of life, and our freedoms are not secure with imminent threats on the horizon.

Please, disabuse yourself of the notion that Mainland China is not weaponizing their hackerdom against us simultaneously.