Has anybody actually been finding good deals on used Tesla's? Every time I see one that looks like a decent price, it has extremely high miles or serious issues.
Anytime I see one with low miles and in good condition, it is approaching the price of a new one.
Fade_Dance · 7h ago
I agree with your sentiment. I've occasionally browsed them, and like you said, while many are cheap, you get what you pay for more so than with other models (higher mileage, worse condition). I usually end up finding that other makes and models are a better value.
mlhpdx · 7h ago
The first page of search results on autotrader.com?
gwerbret · 7h ago
> Used Tesla car prices are now down 4.59% year-over-year
Their graph shows a drop from $33k to $28k since August '24, or about 18%. Did they leave a factor of 4 behind somewhere?
chii · 8h ago
ICE used cars are often in relative good working condition.
EV used cars are basically dead batteries. It makes a lot of sense to see used EVs price plummet. The index being used to make this comparison doesn't seem to disclose the car category, so it's hard to draw any conclusions.
If tesla car specifically drops in value, compared to other electric car brands for similar vintage/model vehicles, then you can draw a conclusion. Otherwise, it'd be merely confirmation bias.
conradev · 7h ago
Don’t ICE cars require a lot more maintenance per mile than EVs?
I own a Toyota 4Runner which is known for holding its value long term and is super reliable… but I do have to change fluids regularly, for example. Engine oil, transfer case fluid, etc.
Regenerative braking is supposed to be nicer to the actual brakes, too, even though an EV with the same capacity is generally heavier.
chronal4720 · 7h ago
> Don’t ICE cars require a lot more maintenance per mile than EVs?
Model 3/Y battery replacement is US$15,000 to US$20,000.
Wipes out all other EV maintenance cost advantages.
YZF · 7h ago
Modern batteries can last a long while though. If you take care of it and mostly keep it between 25-75% and don't supercharge it too often. There are Teslas with more than 300K miles on the original battery.
I have a model 3 with ~80K kilometers and the battery is as good as new. 2018 model. For someone that drives 10-15K km a year there's maybe 30 years more driving on this battery (400K km).
My previous ICE car had two head gasket replacements in the 10 years I owned it. I also had to replace the entire engine. Oil changes. Brake pads/discs, CV joints... So far the EV is way ahead and based on the current battery degradation should remain ahead.
chronal4720 · 7h ago
> If you take care of it and mostly keep it between 25-75% and don't supercharge it too often
For used cars, you don’t know what the previous owner did.
> For someone that drives 10-15K km a year there's maybe 30 years more driving on this battery (400K km).
EV battery life is more related to calendar age, rather than number of charge cycles and C charging rate.
hvb2 · 7h ago
> EV battery life is more related to calendar age, rather than number of charge cycles and C charging rate.
That seems to be contrary to common belief. It's the cycles that deteriorate the cathode/anode.
I would like to read up on your source
flowerthoughts · 7h ago
For a Tesla with under-the-hood/enforced telemetry, I guess you could actually know what the previous owner did.
foxglacier · 7h ago
You have battery health stats which can reflect poor charging habits of the previous owner.
adrianN · 7h ago
How long does the battery last though? Engine replacements are expensive too, but usually every other part breaks before the engine.
chronal4720 · 7h ago
> How long does the battery last though?
Tesla gives 8 years for battery warranty.
Interpret that as you may.
In reality, too early to tell. But probably not 20+ years like a Toyota/Honda engine or even a Mercedes/BMW/Porsche engine.
comte7092 · 7h ago
Apply that reasoning to ICE, it’s not like Toyota/Honda are giving 20 year warranties for their drivetrains.
8 years is standard and implies a substantially longer expected lifetime of the vehicle on average.
Joel_Mckay · 7h ago
True, but grey market rebuilt packs for Prius are only $2k to $6k if you know the secret of the Cab fleet companies.
For most other models one is indeed not so lucky =3
hvb2 · 7h ago
> Don’t ICE cars require a lot more maintenance per mile than EVs?
Yes, and this to me feels like one of the least understood things about EVs.
There's no engine, clutch, gearbox etc. No timing belt or spark plugs either. So yes, that saves a lot of maintenance.
And depending how you drive you might not use friction brakes at all either. Leaving maintenance to be a 12V battery and tires.
Based on driving an ev for 10 years (Nissan Leaf)
grepfru_it · 7h ago
My timing belt (chain), clutch, and gearbox last 130k+ miles. Thats the life of some EV batteries. Coilpacks cost $100. You are not wrong, but I have not had any major repair on any of my cars under 50k miles. Maintenance does exist but it doesn’t wildly drive up the cost per mile
There is also suspension, a/c, wipers, and interior electronics.
The difference between ice and EV stops after the drivetrain and most ice drivetrains are rather reliable these days. My 10 year old ice sedan costs about 0.18/mi. I would be interested to know what a comparable EV would cost, considering half of my cost is basically gasoline
Update: it seems EVs cost under 0.10/mi with figures coming in between 0.03 and 0.08. This doesn’t explain if this is all costs (including things like washer fluid, regular maintenance etc) or estimated costs+charging. My costs were tracked over a 6 year span
hvb2 · 7h ago
> My timing belt (chain), clutch, and gearbox last 130k+ miles. Thats the life of some EV batteries.
If that's the life of your battery, you get it replaced under warranty. Since no supplier wants to have to replace the bulk of batteries under warranty that seems to just be false in Tesla's case at least.
Your cost per mile including gas really depends on where you live. Because gas prices vary wildly.
Most premium ice cars aren't cheap to maintain unless you're doing a lot yourself
grepfru_it · 7h ago
Who provides a warranty over 130k miles on the battery! Cost per mile for gas was from $2.15 (yay covid) up to $4.21, average gas price paid over the life of the car is at $3.20. 98% of my fillups was 93 octane gas
My car is a premium (luxury) car
ZeroGravitas · 6h ago
Note that the battery warranties aren't just for total failure, most are for at least 70% of original capacity at say 8/10 years or 100k (and are generally increasing on newer models). BYD offer 125K miles on their blade battery for example.
Coincidentally, studies have shown that MPG on ICE engines can drop as much as 40% after 10 years.
You can also buy 3rd party battery warranties. As with any insurance product the price would be lower if everyone bought in. Would probably be a good subsidy for nations trying to encourage EV adoption.
hvb2 · 7h ago
> Who provides a warranty over 130k miles on the battery!
That’s only Tesla. How about Ford? Toyota? GM? Kia?
The industry average is drastically below that number..
hvb2 · 6h ago
Besides that the thread us about Tesla, would you consider any of those premium cars?
Kia and Toyota? Ford and GM I could see
But also, this is part of how tesla is ahead still on other manufacturers. Knowing their product and being able to provide a better warranty speaks to their own confidence in it
grepfru_it · 4h ago
Huh?
Kia/Hyundai provides a 10 year/100k mileage warranty. Double that of Tesla. I wonder if Tesla knows their premium cars will fall apart long before their batteries do?
This was a great thought experiment though! Let’s do it again sometime?
jjav · 6h ago
> > Don’t ICE cars require a lot more maintenance per mile than EVs?
> Yes, and this to me feels like one of the least understood things about EVs.
Well my anecdote is different. We're on our third EV over 11 years, so have a bit of experience.
Each one of those 3 EVs has spent at least 10x more days at the dealer than my 15 year old Mazda (ICE) minivan (which has spent exactly one afternoon at the dealer).
janaagaard · 6h ago
> And depending how you drive you might not use friction brakes at all.
I’ve been told that should remember to use your friction brakes once in a while, to keep them in shape. Is this still true with cars that have effective engine brakes?
general1726 · 5h ago
It is still true and it is a big deal on EVs which are using calipers instead of drums for braking; i.e. Tesla. Problem is that their brake calipers would rust (due to lack of usage) and then seize on major braking and would not disengage anymore.
Use it or lose it kind of situation with brakes on EVs
Hamuko · 7h ago
Not using the brakes isn't particularly good from a maintenance perspective since your brakes will rust and stop working.
Ekaros · 4h ago
Also they are mechanical things under pretty stressful conditions. So you need to activate them properly from time to time to have parts move as freely as they should.
adrianN · 7h ago
AFAIK cars know this and occasionally engage the friction brakes
nothercastle · 7h ago
In general yes but Tesla is a pretty low volume closed ecosystem with poor parts availability. So when you have a problem it’s going to be a huge pain in the a.
jjav · 6h ago
> Don’t ICE cars require a lot more maintenance per mile than EVs?
A good ICE vehicle without a CVT can last a long time.
Regenerative braking means people don't need brake maintenance as often, but also have to replace tires more frequently (especially lazy people that don't rotate the tires regularly.)
Personally, I wouldn't buy a North American ICE model from the past 17 years. Go to a site like Edmunds and sort by worst reviews first, and run if you see electrical or drivetrain complaints. You will have to go back decades to find a reasonable quality domestic ICE model. =3
jemmyw · 7h ago
I'm interested to know why doing regen instead of braking would mean you have to replace the tires more often? Seeing as the tires are the only thing in contact with the road I would have thought it wouldn't make any difference what was slowing the wheels to create more friction - brakes or the engine. Can you elaborate?
Joel_Mckay · 6h ago
I wouldn't know for sure, but suspect the relatively higher mass of an EV puts more wear on the tires during braking and acceleration. You certainly feel when the regenerative mode kicks on in a smaller vehicle.
Someone will have to pester a physicist at some point for a better answer.
Cheers =3
Fade_Dance · 7h ago
That's not true at all. Many reliable models from US manufacturers over the past 17 years. Just do some basic research. Likewise, there are plenty of awful models from otherwise reliable manufacturers (Toyota oil burning engines, Hyundai grenading Theta engines).
That said most of the reliable models are passed over. People assume that a recent Chevy Malibu or Buick Regal is an unreliable car, but some of those sorts of cars can hit 200k with ease.
Joel_Mckay · 6h ago
>Just do some basic research
Indeed, and we purchased Honda and Toyota models for in town. I like the silly look of the Rivian, but wanted to hold off a year to see what others say about its mechanical equity.
Be honest, Ford and Dodge have been on a downward slope for decades. =3
adrianN · 7h ago
I’m surprised that tires can tell by which mechanism they are braked.
cma · 7h ago
I think EVs need more tire changes and rotations from the added weight and the tires are a bit more expensive.
otherme123 · 7h ago
Engineering Explained youtuber made recently a video selling his Tesla (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFLrDaV6nkE), and all his mantainance costs for 60k miles are quite low: about $600, taking out damage from hitting a pothole hard.
The gas savings vs electricity consumed were huge, about $10k
chronal4720 · 7h ago
> The gas savings vs electricity consumed were huge, about $10k
Not in California.
Many people charge exclusively at superchargers and pay $42+ for 250 miles of range ($0.60+/kWh peak hours after work).
That’s 6-8 gallons in an ICE car. At $5/gallon this makes EV supercharging more expensive than gasoline.
hvb2 · 7h ago
When buying an ev, knowing you can charge at home should be part of your decision.
Also, I've never seen 60 cents a kWh at a supercharger in California. 50 cents, plenty of times. But that's the most I've seen. Maybe that's some specific part of LA or something.
klipklop · 5h ago
Based on how PG&E is pricing things I suspect prices are only going sharply upwards from here. They pretty much hold the state hostage at this point. “Give us more money or we can’t guarantee that we wont accidentally burn down rural towns in the Sierra foothills.”
hvb2 · 8h ago
> EV used cars are basically dead batteries.
A lot of these used to be leased cars. Why would those batteries be dead?
An 8 year warranty seems fine for new vehicles, but doesn't help much with selling used vehicles that are 6 or 7 years old.
senectus1 · 6h ago
my cheap chinese MG4 with and LFP has a 10 year warranty...
benjiro · 7h ago
Never owned a Tesla, but the amount of horror stories involved with Tesla, its often a hard battle to get warranty, especially around the battery when it involves a second hand vehicle. Even first owner vehicles are often a mixed experience.
I assumed you never opened the link you point to, as its literally in the first line very clearly "Your new Tesla" (as in, not a second hand vehicle). Ooooo, fun, look a bit lower in the actual model info. Your vehicle need to return to the first registered area to gain warranty for a resell. Here in Europe we see often cars being sold that come from Spain or other area's, in Germany. By that contract condition, it need to go back to Spain for a battery fix. lol
Tesla Vehicle warranty is at discretion of Tesla bla bla ... Battery max 8 years, or 240.000km, ... Lots of other exceptions to that warranty.
And if you can apply the warranty, your also not getting a new battery, but a refurb based upon the whole description.
Fyi: Lithium batteries drop in capacity faster and faster when they go past the 80% mark. But legally, Tesla can shove anything in there. A 100% battery, a 80% battery, ... you get the point.
With a ICE engine, even on rental cars, you tend to get the same millage out of them, as a new one. Most issues are often more on the clutch or turbo, both relative cheap repairs compared to a battery pack.
People have been warned years ago, that second hand market for EV cars is going to be a issue because of the battery. Now we are seeing the effect on the pricing.
hvb2 · 6h ago
I believe you misinterpreted that piece about area.
Area there is Europe. Warranties on us cars do not apply in Europe.
Hmmm. The Cybertruck has only been on sale since 2023, so presumably it shouldn't be impacted by this issue, but it seems like it still is (moreso than other used cars at least.) Being the most distinctive Tesla car there is, I expect a lot of that does come down to damage to the brand...
devmor · 7h ago
I don't think we should consider the Cybertruck alongside the other Tesla vehicles in this particular comparison. Brand aside, it's a low quality vehicle that gets outclassed by both EV and ICE trucks at half (or less, depending on configuration) of its MSRP - all of which have a better reliability track record.
I have looked at a few 2012 Nissan leafs, out of curiosity.
Virtually all of them have over half their original battery life. That’s low enough to be restrictive in a car, but far from dead.
hvb2 · 7h ago
Keep in mind that those are dinosaurs in the ev world.
Battery is air cooled and can't really fast charge.
They're great commuter cars though if the range is enough or you charge at work
Source, I have one :)
kedikedi · 7h ago
And if it’s the very first gen of the Leaf, then, as far as I know, they don’t have thermal management for the batteries. So it greatly stresses them both for discharge and charge and that manifests as reduced capacity.
Lithium cells are happy when they are around 20-25 degrees Celsius (about 75F?) but they don’t enjoy when it’s hot or cold. Likewise, they don’t enjoy full charges and discharges which I’d guess more probable in a smaller range car.
All in all, the first gen Leaf might not be a good benchmark for a more modern EV. Many things should be better now.
nothercastle · 7h ago
A lot of the cheap old ones have 35-60 miles of range. Enough to get to town but not back
geerlingguy · 7h ago
But fine for a local errand car, at the right price.
And there are a couple places working on replacement battery packs.
Batteries are rarely dead, they just loose capacity. (And quite slowly at that!!) Resale goes down if you decide there's not enough capacity left and want to sell, but the car is still fine. Eventually, yes, someone might opt to battery swap: for a Tesla that's currently ~$10-20k depending. But in another 10 years? It's quite likely battery prices will have continued to decline, & costs will be less.
Flipping the bozo bit on this guy.
bestnameever · 7h ago
That 2022 car has maybe 12 more years before the battery will require replacing, assuming it degrades 1% a year so hopefully prices do drop.
spacedcowboy · 7h ago
I drove 65,000 miles in my ICE car over a period of ~16 years. If the Mustang has 92% left after 250,000 miles driven, I suspect a second hand EV would provably work for me.
But I’d never buy a Tesla car. Because of Musk.
jauntywundrkind · 7h ago
I feel like there's a lot of people who'd be totally fine with an only 240 mile (80%) range car instead of a 300 mile (100%) range car. There's probably plenty of people fine with a 150 mile range car too (50%)!!
We don't need every car to be good at long road trips. Yes, some people will want to either replace the battery or get a newer car. But I think, right now, there's wayyy too much fear over battery longjevity, and that folks are way off base about how many miles a pack is good for.
And ideally, the expected battery life should be a competitive factor in car buying: Teslas seem to be down almost 2x as much after 250k miles (85% rather than 92%). Different batteries will have different battery lifecycles, and ideally, consumers can help nudge the car makers into caring more, but there needs to be information available for generate that demand-pressure. And also crucial: without battery lifecycle information, FUD is going to dissuade a lot of would-be buyers!
motorest · 7h ago
> EV used cars are basically dead batteries.
A quick googling shows some sources claiming EVs are in general designed with a planned service life or around 10 years.
That's basically the same planned service life for ICE cars, which some sources claim it tends to be 12 years or 200k miles.
One source suggests battery capacity in EVs drop less than 2% per year on average.
These numbers seem to contradict you, but you show your data so that we can look into it.
irrational · 7h ago
I always keep my ICE cars for at least 25 years. It is crazy to me that people are getting rid of them after only 12 years.
zevon · 6h ago
I have the same attitude. While I don't keep them as long, I've rarely ever had a car that was less than 20 years old. And why not? Keeping stuff that works around instead of throwing it away is good, it's cheap, there is long-term data available on what works / didn't work / the spare part situation, fuel economy and safety mostly depend on what models you chose and compare. Working on old stuff is often also easier (no matter if you do it yourself or pay someone else). Also: Switches, stalks, locks that also work without batteries, no huge displays, no ride-by-wire - nice! ;)
motorest · 6h ago
> I always keep my ICE cars for at least 25 years.
That's not what service life means. It's a design requirement that is used to drive probabilistic models that determine longevity targets for individual components, and also reflects a manufacturer's commitment to support a specific model.
Yes, your car is expected to still run after 12 years. Some cars also run after doing 200k miles.
> It is crazy to me that people are getting rid of them after only 12 years.
Some people replace cars way earlier than that, either because maintenance becomes too expensive due to severe use (see Uber drivers) or because they simply feel like it. There's a reason where car leasing is a successful business.
pseudo0 · 7h ago
That works if you have the skills, tools, and willingness to do a lot of work yourself. For most people, a major repair on a 10+ year old car (engine, transmission, etc) means sinking more money into a car than its blue book value.
zevon · 6h ago
This may be true under certain conditions but there are many cars around that are much older than 10 years and have never needed major surgery along the lines of an engine replacement. It's not unreasonable to expect a car and its engine to run for the 25 years or more mentioned by the person you were replying to. Maintenance and routine repairs can be had for reasonable prices if you find yourself a good, fair mechanic and drive a car that's not too rare and has an OK spare part situation.
jemmyw · 6h ago
I'd like to quibble with the word "always" and "least" there. If you passed your test and got your first car at 18 and you're younger than 68 then you've only had time for one 25 year old car, plus your current car.
I've gone through quite a lot of cars, but only one of them because it was broken and not worth fixing. The others were due to circumstances changing, like moving country, or having a larger family.
mac-mc · 7h ago
very weather and mileage dependent, if you live in a fair weather place and garage it, it can last much longer
dismalaf · 7h ago
I live in Canada, have a 15 year old Hyundai Elantra that sees -40 degrees every winter, I ski 50+ days per year so it sees a ton of snowy roads, and the car has had exactly zero mechanical issues. I've only replaced brake pads, rotors just this year, and tires.
croes · 7h ago
Less fuel consumption, less pollution, less noise.
bryanlarsen · 6h ago
You're reading that wrong. The average age of a licensed car is 12 years. So that means the average age of disposal is 24 years.
motorest · 5h ago
> You're reading that wrong. The average age of a licensed car is 12 years. So that means the average age of disposal is 24 years.
I'm repeating verbatim claims from car forums made by people claiming to be automotive engineers who worked for major car manufacturers.
I am talking about claims like this:
> I spent 25 years as an engineer at Rover Group and now work for it's evolved equivalent. Overall, vehicles are designed for a lifetime of 12 years or 120,000 miles and engineering standards are intended to reflect this. this is pretty much standard across the industry.
It's interesting that cars last pretty much exactly twice as long as the engineer claims they are designed to last.
The design goal is likely something like 95% of cars last 12 years, which means the 50% is much higher than 12.
whatever1 · 7h ago
Apart from the fact that electric vehicle technology is evolving rapidly, making older models significantly inferior to newer ones, the other significant concern is the concentrated risk associated with used batteries.
While various issues can arise in a used Camry, none of these individually can match the cost of battery replacement. While I can manage a few thousand-dollar service bills, I certainly cannot afford a twenty thousand-dollar bill for a used car.
jfoster · 8h ago
This seems to happen with other types of electronics, too. I think many avoid used laptops and phones partly due to the expectation that the overall condition won't be good.
incone123 · 7h ago
You're right. Amazon UK has a great selection of used ThinkPads with worn out batteries. Fine if you have no plan to use it away from mains power. If something has a battery, I would rather buy new.
akmarinov · 7h ago
> EV used cars are basically dead batteries
Lol, no, they’re not.
The average EV is likely in a better condition than the average ICE, due to the maintenance requirements on both
mirsadm · 7h ago
Not sure if you're being intentionally dishonest. It makes no sense for ICE cars to be in good working condition and EVs to have dead batteries. If anything I'd be much more worried about an engine/transmission dying in an ICE car because you need to know how the car was driven and maintained by the previous owner(s).
nothercastle · 7h ago
The power bus transformer/controller is essentially the EV equivalent of transmission. It can die and also be very expensive
chronal4720 · 7h ago
> If anything I'd be much more worried about an engine/transmission dying in an ICE car because you need to know how the car was driven and maintained by the previous owner(s).
ICE car dies after X miles are driven.
EV car dies after X years have elapsed, regardless of mileage.
croes · 7h ago
Nope. Battery life isn’t simply dependent on time passed. Al lot is based on how it’s charged and discharged
thelastgallon · 7h ago
> ICE used cars are often in relative good working condition.
Yes! ICE cars have 10,000 moving parts, and also chambers for burning stuff, lots of oil and residual burnt stuff. ICE cars work exactly like the human body, exercise helps live longer. EV cars have nearly no moving parts, they get obese and die sooner.
bryanlarsen · 6h ago
Sure, if you define 85% of original capacity to be dead.
rapsey · 7h ago
They are not dead, EV batteries actually last a very long time. Over here in europe there is actually a company that will repair your battery and Tesla cars are great for that.
So after 200,000 miles or 10 years, you're on average expecting 70% of the nominal battery capacity. My car is at 150k miles, 8 years, and 85% capacity. You can expect more than 300,000 miles on the odometer before the battery dips below 66%.
And mind you, even then the car can work just fine if you don't _need_ range.
Joel_Mckay · 7h ago
>EV used cars are basically dead batteries
True, a local club has an Electric 1913 Detroit that ran for 78 years on the same set of Edison cells. These cells were replaced due to leakage rather than capacity loss by the club re-builders a few decades back. Think about the total distance traveled compared to a modern EV. YMMV was never so true.
The battery is the car for most EV, and given most manufacturers adversarial relationship with external repair shops it is effectively e-waste in 8 to 14 years. =3
runeks · 8h ago
> EV used cars are basically dead batteries.
Source please.
jfoster · 7h ago
It's an exaggeration but you shouldn't need a source for older batteries being in worse condition than brand new batteries.
Perhaps if battery condition could be measured and reported on well, used EVs could be more appropriately valued.
mirsadm · 7h ago
On many EVs (including Tesla's) you can measure the health of the battery. How are you going to measure the health of an ICE engine or transmission?
mlhpdx · 7h ago
Mechanics have been doing that for about 100 years now. It’s not complicated to judge the “health” of an engine. Compression ratio, exhaust composition, even just the sound of it to a trained ear.
While the cost of replacing a battery in an EV is high, it’s not very different than an engine and transmission.
YZF · 7h ago
Compression ratio basically just measures the state of the valves and the piston rings. There are many other parts that can wear out. I've owned many ICE vehicles, cars and motorcycles- you're taking some risk when you buy a used one. If it's an owner that kept meticulous service records, and they're all according to the manufacturer recommendations, and the car is inspected by a good mechanic, then it's likely to be ok. But even then you just never know, they fail on some curve. Lots of aluminum engines end up developing some warpage and head gasket issues. Transmissions aren't as easy to check, you can look at the fluid but if it's been recently replaced that won't tell you much. You can analyze engine oil but nobody does that when purchasing a vehicle (and you don't know when the oil has been replaced).
mlhpdx · 7h ago
Yes, and the same is true for the EV. Many, many things to go wrong; electronics are prone to abuse and wear and tear, too. I’d love to see Tesla’s data on “out of warranty” treatment of their cars.
bestnameever · 7h ago
I determine when to change the oil in my car based on how the engine sounds.
haunter · 5h ago
I was actually looking at used Model 3s recently because there aren't many EV options available on the used market with LFP batteries
p0w3n3d · 7h ago
I wonder what is the reliability of a used Tesla. Is only the battery failing after some time? I heard that any hit to the battery may make it burn in some time later which is a huge issue, but don't all EV have battery in the chassis?
I can't imagine people not buying used car because the owner of the company said something. Especially if the car is top high innovation in EV
beardedscotsman · 7h ago
Tesla isn’t the only company making great EVs EU is now full of other impressive machines and BYD is also being out impressive vehicles.
Tesla, well reputation is trash.
Company success is questionable.
I’d rather by an EV from anyone right now than Tesla.
p0w3n3d · 6h ago
I'm a big fan of Tesla since the first time I've seen it during my trip to London. There were two model S standing next to each other. the car and the chassis. It's been said that the chassis (with the battery and motors) is enough for this car to ride turn and brake. That's when I fell in love with it.
I really have trouble cancelling something just because some guy is doing some things. There were gazillion of people working on it and I have feeling that I would cancel them too, but they are innocent really
general1726 · 5h ago
Spare parts are a problem, especially on older cars which were constantly updated (no locked hardware design). This has been great feature for first buyers, but disaster for everyone else after them.
kelseyfrog · 7h ago
Besides TCO, there's a reputational discount: many buyers don't want to be "the person with the Nazi-salute guy's car," so resale values drop.
scarab92 · 6h ago
I think that perspective mostly exists amongst the chronically online. I don’t see it much in the real world.
All EVs depreciate quickly, Tesla isn’t unique in this regard.
The reason is simply that the market is currently higher income earning early adopters. That customer base is willing to pay the premium for the newest model, and upgrades quickly when newer models come out.
This results in a large of supply of 3 year old vehicles, but not much demand.
In time we’ll see used EVs depreciate at rates more similar to ICE vehicles, as mainstream buyers, who view EVs as a car rather than a tech product, enter the market.
anon22981 · 5h ago
Tesla definitely has suffered a huge blow to it’s reputation (or several of them) which is evident in the EU new car sales.
Maybe your take is true if you are non-EU, but it definitely isn’t true in the slightest in Europe and is pure copium.
bn-l · 6h ago
That is a lie and any one propagating it at this point is an obvious bad actor.
czottmann · 3h ago
It isn't. I'm from Germany, and Musk doing the Nazi salute has widely made the rounds. Lots of people are appalled, so are people in other parts of the EU, and here are some actually numbers on that:
The new car demand has dropped like a brick, and I'm quite sure used car sales have, too.
bn-l · 2h ago
Exhausting. Have you seen the original video? It’s an obvious lie.
tasuki · 1h ago
I have seen the original video. However charitably I tried to look at it, it looked very much like a nazi salute to me. I watched Herr Hitler doing his salute for comparison, it looked eerily similar to me.
How did you interpret the original video?
ndsipa_pomu · 8m ago
> I can't imagine people not buying used car because the owner of the company said something
That's a nice way of trivialising what Musk has been doing. It's not just what he says, but his Nazi salutes (also his destruction of the U.S. government) and his general racism and politics.
Do you remember the Ratner's Jewellery collapse? That was people completely boycotting Ratner's due to the owner/CEO, Gerald Ratner comparing his company's products to the quality of a prawn sandwich.
Tesla according to them is a great used car to buy. Not all models however.
> Based on our experience and that of our colleagues’ labs at 15-20 different locations worldwide, we have concluded that the battery is the last concern on the list during the first 10 years of an EV’s life, with some vehicles covering a large number of miles with the original battery system. The most common failures within 10 years of using an EV are: 1. Electric motors, 2. OBC chargers, 3. DCDC/inverters, and only in fourth place, batteries.
p0w3n3d · 6h ago
Thank you. Im thinking of buying this car primarily because of its exceptionally low price but the cost of repair scares me. I wonder if the engines are repairable or as it becomes custom nowadays in all the cars - only replaceable.
croes · 7h ago
> Tesla is still regarded as a premium brand in the industry.
That’s just not true anymore
devmor · 7h ago
I think people are missing the forest for the trees when commenting on this one. It's not EVs vs ICE, it's Tesla vs everything else.
Tesla has supply chain issues. They have always had supply chain issues. Some people have to beg Musk on social media for attention to get their cars repaired after months and months of waiting.
No one wants to buy a used EV with existing or potential upcoming maintenance issues that may cause it to be unusable for a significant period of time.
drivingmenuts · 6h ago
My understanding is that the batteries are only good for so long (around 7 years or so) and then, they cost more to replace than the car is worth. Have to wonder if this is going to be a universal issue?
bryanlarsen · 6h ago
The battery will probably need replacing after 250,000 miles or so. So yes, the battery will cost more to replace than the rest of the car, but that's because the rest of any car that's traveled 250,000 miles is no more than scrap value.
lnsru · 7h ago
And yet it is still impossible to find cheap used model 3 for a family member in Germany. Everybody’s telling about massive price drops, but I haven’t seen one for months.
pbasista · 7h ago
What would you consider to be a cheap enough Tesla Model 3?
A quick search on mobile.de shows that a standard range Tesla Model 3 that is about 3 years old and has a mileage of ~100k km costs ~25k euros. A similar Tesla Model Y costs ~30k euros. Those are final prices for end customer with VAT.
lnsru · 6h ago
Under 20k would be cheap. For 25k Tesla directly sells certified used models 3 without shady middlemen.
pbasista · 5h ago
I see.
If you are okay with older 2019 Tesla Model 3, there are plenty of offerings for that price. And even cheaper.
PeterHolzwarth · 7h ago
A great reminder of the popular press vs the reality of the market.
thrown-0825 · 7h ago
I dont know if BYD is available in Europe but I find them to be comparable in quality and very affordable.
nothercastle · 7h ago
Shitty quality too?
thrown-0825 · 7h ago
about what you would expect from a modern sedan, i would compare them to a mazda or hyundai
cyberax · 6h ago
They are surprisingly good. I borrowed one (Seal) on a vacation in Armenia, and its quality felt better than in my Model 3.
No rattles, panel fit is better, and the general feeling of the interior was nicer.
Their long-term reliability is not yet known, though.
watwut · 7h ago
German and American used car prices can differ.
rapsey · 7h ago
It is just insane how much bad press Tesla gets compared to other car makers. A lot of it huge exaggerations or lies.
Tesla recalls millions of vehichles plastered on every major news site. When it is just an over the air software update.
Or Tesla the most unreliable car in the world, according to the most respected german organisation, yeah they counted those OTA updates.
brokencode · 7h ago
Elon drew a huge target on Tesla by going so hard into politics. Truly a lot of people are still pissed off worldwide and want to see him fail.
If Tesla doesn’t like it, maybe they should fire him instead of paying him $30B.
rapsey · 7h ago
Bad press about Tesla has been a staple since way before his political activities. It was all funded by short sellers.
watwut · 7h ago
They count OTA for everyone. Tesla is being treated like everyone.
rapsey · 7h ago
They are being punished for improving their software. Other car makers mostly abandon their existing models.
cyberax · 6h ago
Tesla's software is crap. The updates are basically just moving stuff randomly around the screen and maybe adding a game once in a while.
For me, the most significant addition within 8 years of owning a Model 3 was the addition of waypoints in the trip planner. That's it.
Other car makers simply provide Android Auto/CarPlay and let users pick what they want to run.
vkou · 7h ago
> It is just insane how much bad press Tesla gets compared to other car makers.
Most of the other car makers weren't promising FSD next year for decades, or have their CEO giving the Roman Salute at MAGA rallies, or regularly having ketamine-fueled affluenza breakdowns on Twitter. Also, their ticker is a truly bizarre memestock.
There's easy targets, and there's painting one on your own back.
Tryk · 7h ago
It was a Nazi Salute, two of them.
jondwillis · 7h ago
It’s almost as if there’s things that tip the bias against Tesla!
I for one can’t think of A SINGLE reason why anyone or any news outlet could criticize a nicer, more normal, grounded, unproblematic, controversial, or completely good and undeserving company than Tesla.
/s
There’s so much to like about EVs, and there’s no denying Tesla’s outsized role in bringing practical EVs to market, and kickstarting competition, which is mostly good, despite the tactics and controversy.
Trying to leave politics out of it, it’s also undeniable that Elon, in and out of his CEO role at Tesla, has done some really harmful, shitty, trust-destroying things. I think everyone can agree that reality cannot have possibly matched the hyperbole and marketing claims. The overpromising, and therefore untruths, good faith or no, alone are enough for me.
The dude’s fingerprints, and everything good and bad (mostly bad for some time now IMO) that come along with it, are all over Tesla.
Anytime I see one with low miles and in good condition, it is approaching the price of a new one.
Their graph shows a drop from $33k to $28k since August '24, or about 18%. Did they leave a factor of 4 behind somewhere?
EV used cars are basically dead batteries. It makes a lot of sense to see used EVs price plummet. The index being used to make this comparison doesn't seem to disclose the car category, so it's hard to draw any conclusions.
If tesla car specifically drops in value, compared to other electric car brands for similar vintage/model vehicles, then you can draw a conclusion. Otherwise, it'd be merely confirmation bias.
I own a Toyota 4Runner which is known for holding its value long term and is super reliable… but I do have to change fluids regularly, for example. Engine oil, transfer case fluid, etc.
Regenerative braking is supposed to be nicer to the actual brakes, too, even though an EV with the same capacity is generally heavier.
Model 3/Y battery replacement is US$15,000 to US$20,000.
Wipes out all other EV maintenance cost advantages.
I have a model 3 with ~80K kilometers and the battery is as good as new. 2018 model. For someone that drives 10-15K km a year there's maybe 30 years more driving on this battery (400K km).
My previous ICE car had two head gasket replacements in the 10 years I owned it. I also had to replace the entire engine. Oil changes. Brake pads/discs, CV joints... So far the EV is way ahead and based on the current battery degradation should remain ahead.
For used cars, you don’t know what the previous owner did.
> For someone that drives 10-15K km a year there's maybe 30 years more driving on this battery (400K km).
EV battery life is more related to calendar age, rather than number of charge cycles and C charging rate.
That seems to be contrary to common belief. It's the cycles that deteriorate the cathode/anode.
I would like to read up on your source
Tesla gives 8 years for battery warranty.
Interpret that as you may.
In reality, too early to tell. But probably not 20+ years like a Toyota/Honda engine or even a Mercedes/BMW/Porsche engine.
8 years is standard and implies a substantially longer expected lifetime of the vehicle on average.
For most other models one is indeed not so lucky =3
Yes, and this to me feels like one of the least understood things about EVs.
There's no engine, clutch, gearbox etc. No timing belt or spark plugs either. So yes, that saves a lot of maintenance.
And depending how you drive you might not use friction brakes at all either. Leaving maintenance to be a 12V battery and tires.
Based on driving an ev for 10 years (Nissan Leaf)
There is also suspension, a/c, wipers, and interior electronics.
The difference between ice and EV stops after the drivetrain and most ice drivetrains are rather reliable these days. My 10 year old ice sedan costs about 0.18/mi. I would be interested to know what a comparable EV would cost, considering half of my cost is basically gasoline
Update: it seems EVs cost under 0.10/mi with figures coming in between 0.03 and 0.08. This doesn’t explain if this is all costs (including things like washer fluid, regular maintenance etc) or estimated costs+charging. My costs were tracked over a 6 year span
If that's the life of your battery, you get it replaced under warranty. Since no supplier wants to have to replace the bulk of batteries under warranty that seems to just be false in Tesla's case at least.
Your cost per mile including gas really depends on where you live. Because gas prices vary wildly.
Most premium ice cars aren't cheap to maintain unless you're doing a lot yourself
My car is a premium (luxury) car
Coincidentally, studies have shown that MPG on ICE engines can drop as much as 40% after 10 years.
You can also buy 3rd party battery warranties. As with any insurance product the price would be lower if everyone bought in. Would probably be a good subsidy for nations trying to encourage EV adoption.
Tesla... On the S, X and cybertruck
https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty
And 120k on the Y long range.
The industry average is drastically below that number..
Kia and Toyota? Ford and GM I could see
But also, this is part of how tesla is ahead still on other manufacturers. Knowing their product and being able to provide a better warranty speaks to their own confidence in it
Kia/Hyundai provides a 10 year/100k mileage warranty. Double that of Tesla. I wonder if Tesla knows their premium cars will fall apart long before their batteries do?
This was a great thought experiment though! Let’s do it again sometime?
> Yes, and this to me feels like one of the least understood things about EVs.
Well my anecdote is different. We're on our third EV over 11 years, so have a bit of experience.
Each one of those 3 EVs has spent at least 10x more days at the dealer than my 15 year old Mazda (ICE) minivan (which has spent exactly one afternoon at the dealer).
I’ve been told that should remember to use your friction brakes once in a while, to keep them in shape. Is this still true with cars that have effective engine brakes?
Use it or lose it kind of situation with brakes on EVs
https://insideevs.com/news/731559/tesla-least-reliable-used-...
Regenerative braking means people don't need brake maintenance as often, but also have to replace tires more frequently (especially lazy people that don't rotate the tires regularly.)
Personally, I wouldn't buy a North American ICE model from the past 17 years. Go to a site like Edmunds and sort by worst reviews first, and run if you see electrical or drivetrain complaints. You will have to go back decades to find a reasonable quality domestic ICE model. =3
Someone will have to pester a physicist at some point for a better answer.
Cheers =3
That said most of the reliable models are passed over. People assume that a recent Chevy Malibu or Buick Regal is an unreliable car, but some of those sorts of cars can hit 200k with ease.
Indeed, and we purchased Honda and Toyota models for in town. I like the silly look of the Rivian, but wanted to hold off a year to see what others say about its mechanical equity.
Be honest, Ford and Dodge have been on a downward slope for decades. =3
The gas savings vs electricity consumed were huge, about $10k
Not in California.
Many people charge exclusively at superchargers and pay $42+ for 250 miles of range ($0.60+/kWh peak hours after work).
That’s 6-8 gallons in an ICE car. At $5/gallon this makes EV supercharging more expensive than gasoline.
Also, I've never seen 60 cents a kWh at a supercharger in California. 50 cents, plenty of times. But that's the most I've seen. Maybe that's some specific part of LA or something.
A lot of these used to be leased cars. Why would those batteries be dead?
And if they are under the 70% mark then Tesla warranty should cover that. See https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty
I assumed you never opened the link you point to, as its literally in the first line very clearly "Your new Tesla" (as in, not a second hand vehicle). Ooooo, fun, look a bit lower in the actual model info. Your vehicle need to return to the first registered area to gain warranty for a resell. Here in Europe we see often cars being sold that come from Spain or other area's, in Germany. By that contract condition, it need to go back to Spain for a battery fix. lol
Tesla Vehicle warranty is at discretion of Tesla bla bla ... Battery max 8 years, or 240.000km, ... Lots of other exceptions to that warranty.
And if you can apply the warranty, your also not getting a new battery, but a refurb based upon the whole description.
Fyi: Lithium batteries drop in capacity faster and faster when they go past the 80% mark. But legally, Tesla can shove anything in there. A 100% battery, a 80% battery, ... you get the point.
With a ICE engine, even on rental cars, you tend to get the same millage out of them, as a new one. Most issues are often more on the clutch or turbo, both relative cheap repairs compared to a battery pack.
People have been warned years ago, that second hand market for EV cars is going to be a issue because of the battery. Now we are seeing the effect on the pricing.
Area there is Europe. Warranties on us cars do not apply in Europe.
Source: https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/...
Virtually all of them have over half their original battery life. That’s low enough to be restrictive in a car, but far from dead.
They're great commuter cars though if the range is enough or you charge at work
Source, I have one :)
Lithium cells are happy when they are around 20-25 degrees Celsius (about 75F?) but they don’t enjoy when it’s hot or cold. Likewise, they don’t enjoy full charges and discharges which I’d guess more probable in a smaller range car.
All in all, the first gen Leaf might not be a good benchmark for a more modern EV. Many things should be better now.
And there are a couple places working on replacement battery packs.
What piddling nonsense.
Plenty of outrage in replies. Here's a recent article with some specific figures: After more than 250,000 miles, Ford Mustang Mach-E still has 92% battery life. https://electrek.co/2025/07/22/after-250000-miles-this-ford-...
Batteries are rarely dead, they just loose capacity. (And quite slowly at that!!) Resale goes down if you decide there's not enough capacity left and want to sell, but the car is still fine. Eventually, yes, someone might opt to battery swap: for a Tesla that's currently ~$10-20k depending. But in another 10 years? It's quite likely battery prices will have continued to decline, & costs will be less.
Flipping the bozo bit on this guy.
But I’d never buy a Tesla car. Because of Musk.
We don't need every car to be good at long road trips. Yes, some people will want to either replace the battery or get a newer car. But I think, right now, there's wayyy too much fear over battery longjevity, and that folks are way off base about how many miles a pack is good for.
And ideally, the expected battery life should be a competitive factor in car buying: Teslas seem to be down almost 2x as much after 250k miles (85% rather than 92%). Different batteries will have different battery lifecycles, and ideally, consumers can help nudge the car makers into caring more, but there needs to be information available for generate that demand-pressure. And also crucial: without battery lifecycle information, FUD is going to dissuade a lot of would-be buyers!
A quick googling shows some sources claiming EVs are in general designed with a planned service life or around 10 years.
That's basically the same planned service life for ICE cars, which some sources claim it tends to be 12 years or 200k miles.
One source suggests battery capacity in EVs drop less than 2% per year on average.
These numbers seem to contradict you, but you show your data so that we can look into it.
That's not what service life means. It's a design requirement that is used to drive probabilistic models that determine longevity targets for individual components, and also reflects a manufacturer's commitment to support a specific model.
Yes, your car is expected to still run after 12 years. Some cars also run after doing 200k miles.
> It is crazy to me that people are getting rid of them after only 12 years.
Some people replace cars way earlier than that, either because maintenance becomes too expensive due to severe use (see Uber drivers) or because they simply feel like it. There's a reason where car leasing is a successful business.
I've gone through quite a lot of cars, but only one of them because it was broken and not worth fixing. The others were due to circumstances changing, like moving country, or having a larger family.
I'm repeating verbatim claims from car forums made by people claiming to be automotive engineers who worked for major car manufacturers.
I am talking about claims like this:
> I spent 25 years as an engineer at Rover Group and now work for it's evolved equivalent. Overall, vehicles are designed for a lifetime of 12 years or 120,000 miles and engineering standards are intended to reflect this. this is pretty much standard across the industry.
Tell me how I am reading that wrong.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60882953/average-age-us-c...
It's interesting that cars last pretty much exactly twice as long as the engineer claims they are designed to last.
The design goal is likely something like 95% of cars last 12 years, which means the 50% is much higher than 12.
While various issues can arise in a used Camry, none of these individually can match the cost of battery replacement. While I can manage a few thousand-dollar service bills, I certainly cannot afford a twenty thousand-dollar bill for a used car.
Lol, no, they’re not.
The average EV is likely in a better condition than the average ICE, due to the maintenance requirements on both
ICE car dies after X miles are driven.
EV car dies after X years have elapsed, regardless of mileage.
Yes! ICE cars have 10,000 moving parts, and also chambers for burning stuff, lots of oil and residual burnt stuff. ICE cars work exactly like the human body, exercise helps live longer. EV cars have nearly no moving parts, they get obese and die sooner.
No, they aren't. Here are stats for actual Tesla battery degradation: https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-d...
So after 200,000 miles or 10 years, you're on average expecting 70% of the nominal battery capacity. My car is at 150k miles, 8 years, and 85% capacity. You can expect more than 300,000 miles on the odometer before the battery dips below 66%.
And mind you, even then the car can work just fine if you don't _need_ range.
True, a local club has an Electric 1913 Detroit that ran for 78 years on the same set of Edison cells. These cells were replaced due to leakage rather than capacity loss by the club re-builders a few decades back. Think about the total distance traveled compared to a modern EV. YMMV was never so true.
The battery is the car for most EV, and given most manufacturers adversarial relationship with external repair shops it is effectively e-waste in 8 to 14 years. =3
Source please.
Perhaps if battery condition could be measured and reported on well, used EVs could be more appropriately valued.
While the cost of replacing a battery in an EV is high, it’s not very different than an engine and transmission.
I can't imagine people not buying used car because the owner of the company said something. Especially if the car is top high innovation in EV
Tesla, well reputation is trash. Company success is questionable.
I’d rather by an EV from anyone right now than Tesla.
I really have trouble cancelling something just because some guy is doing some things. There were gazillion of people working on it and I have feeling that I would cancel them too, but they are innocent really
All EVs depreciate quickly, Tesla isn’t unique in this regard.
The reason is simply that the market is currently higher income earning early adopters. That customer base is willing to pay the premium for the newest model, and upgrades quickly when newer models come out.
This results in a large of supply of 3 year old vehicles, but not much demand.
In time we’ll see used EVs depreciate at rates more similar to ICE vehicles, as mainstream buyers, who view EVs as a car rather than a tech product, enter the market.
Maybe your take is true if you are non-EU, but it definitely isn’t true in the slightest in Europe and is pure copium.
https://electrek.co/2025/08/05/tesla-sales-in-europe-are-in-...
The new car demand has dropped like a brick, and I'm quite sure used car sales have, too.
How did you interpret the original video?
That's a nice way of trivialising what Musk has been doing. It's not just what he says, but his Nazi salutes (also his destruction of the U.S. government) and his general racism and politics.
Do you remember the Ratner's Jewellery collapse? That was people completely boycotting Ratner's due to the owner/CEO, Gerald Ratner comparing his company's products to the quality of a prawn sandwich.
Tesla according to them is a great used car to buy. Not all models however.
> Based on our experience and that of our colleagues’ labs at 15-20 different locations worldwide, we have concluded that the battery is the last concern on the list during the first 10 years of an EV’s life, with some vehicles covering a large number of miles with the original battery system. The most common failures within 10 years of using an EV are: 1. Electric motors, 2. OBC chargers, 3. DCDC/inverters, and only in fourth place, batteries.
That’s just not true anymore
Tesla has supply chain issues. They have always had supply chain issues. Some people have to beg Musk on social media for attention to get their cars repaired after months and months of waiting.
No one wants to buy a used EV with existing or potential upcoming maintenance issues that may cause it to be unusable for a significant period of time.
A quick search on mobile.de shows that a standard range Tesla Model 3 that is about 3 years old and has a mileage of ~100k km costs ~25k euros. A similar Tesla Model Y costs ~30k euros. Those are final prices for end customer with VAT.
If you are okay with older 2019 Tesla Model 3, there are plenty of offerings for that price. And even cheaper.
No rattles, panel fit is better, and the general feeling of the interior was nicer.
Their long-term reliability is not yet known, though.
Tesla recalls millions of vehichles plastered on every major news site. When it is just an over the air software update.
Or Tesla the most unreliable car in the world, according to the most respected german organisation, yeah they counted those OTA updates.
If Tesla doesn’t like it, maybe they should fire him instead of paying him $30B.
For me, the most significant addition within 8 years of owning a Model 3 was the addition of waypoints in the trip planner. That's it.
Other car makers simply provide Android Auto/CarPlay and let users pick what they want to run.
Most of the other car makers weren't promising FSD next year for decades, or have their CEO giving the Roman Salute at MAGA rallies, or regularly having ketamine-fueled affluenza breakdowns on Twitter. Also, their ticker is a truly bizarre memestock.
There's easy targets, and there's painting one on your own back.
I for one can’t think of A SINGLE reason why anyone or any news outlet could criticize a nicer, more normal, grounded, unproblematic, controversial, or completely good and undeserving company than Tesla. /s There’s so much to like about EVs, and there’s no denying Tesla’s outsized role in bringing practical EVs to market, and kickstarting competition, which is mostly good, despite the tactics and controversy.
Trying to leave politics out of it, it’s also undeniable that Elon, in and out of his CEO role at Tesla, has done some really harmful, shitty, trust-destroying things. I think everyone can agree that reality cannot have possibly matched the hyperbole and marketing claims. The overpromising, and therefore untruths, good faith or no, alone are enough for me.
The dude’s fingerprints, and everything good and bad (mostly bad for some time now IMO) that come along with it, are all over Tesla.