People bringing their pet dogs into grocery stores is an especially egregious societal ill. It's a major problem in places like Seattle where dogs outnumber children.
I once watched a woman hold her little dog over the glass at the pizza bar in Whole Foods. Was waiting for the dog to drop a free sausage link onto the pizza below.
Placing dogs into shopping carts is another one. Dogs rub their dirty buttholes on the same surfaces where you later place your fruits and vegetables.
MisterTea · 3h ago
I too dislike extreme dog people - the kind of people who treat them as a human equal. I grew up with dogs and cats, nowadays just two cats, after they go, no more pets for me. I deeply love my animals and they make great companions.
But make no mistake, they're still animals and are not predictable. I would never bring a dog with me outside to do anything other than go for a walk, always on a leash. They really dont belong in public spaces. I've seen and heard too many stories of dogs suddenly not being the perfect precious animal their owner claims and it bites or attacks another animal or person. Then when they do the owners insist the victim must have done something wrong and take zero responsibility.
abeppu · 2h ago
> I would never bring a dog with me outside to do anything other than go for a walk, always on a leash. They really don't belong in public spaces.
This seems a bit extreme. I think dog owners have a responsibility to make sure their animal is trained and able to be controlled near people, but outdoor public spaces (parks/plazas, cafes with outdoor seating whose management is dog friendly), seem fine.
However, the responsibility for your dog's behavior extends even outside of public space. I was bitten by a dog in the lobby of a friend's building. The dog was leashed and presumably just returning from a walk. Later, I heard that some inspections in that building had to be rescheduled because a dog bit one of the inspectors while inside one of the condos (not sure if it was the same dog). Being in a non-public space in no way reduces the owner's responsibility.
munificent · 3h ago
> the kind of people who treat them as a human equal.
No, they treat them as better than people.
Because in their value system, animals are moral objects but not moral subjects. By that, I mean that actions done to animals can have moral weight. If you take a sick kitten and nurse it back to health, you are a good person. If you kick a puppy, you are a bad person.
But the animal itself (according to this culture) carries no moral responsibility. If a dog bites someone, it's not an evil dog. It's not the dog's fault. It was just raised poorly, or traumatized as a puppy, or the owner should have kept it leashed better, etc.
Thus animals are always morally pure, but people can be bad people. I kind of get where the value system is coming from: animals really are on the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to power and agency, so it does make sense to think of them as mostly receivers of moral actions. But some people take that really far.
theonething · 2h ago
Yes, it extends to the realm of absurdity. When people post videos of animals doing good things, invariably comments are posted affirming how much better animals are than humans and "we don't deserve #{animal}s". At the same turn completely forgetting that in the wild, animals eat other animals (and humans) alive, engage in tribal wars, play around and torture their prey before eating them, commit infanticide, rape, etc.
atmavatar · 1h ago
When they aren't abused, nearly all dogs are extremely loyal and affectionate. When they see you after even the shortest of absences, they act like a kid on Christmas morning just because you're there. They understand basic feelings and will try to comfort you when you're not feeling great. Most are patient to a fault with children. Many if not most will act as guardians, protecting you from threats without hesitation, even in cases where it is obvious it is likely to cost their lives.
We absolutely don't deserve them.
With no cognitive dissonance, I can also recognize that some dogs can be dangerous, and in extreme cases, need to be put down. However, I would point out that the vast majority of misbehaved dogs can and should be trained out of their bad behavior, so it's nearly always their owners' responsibilities.
absurdo · 2h ago
> a free sausage link
I’m in tears.
baggy_trough · 2h ago
Yes, it's truly disgusting. It's one of the only common anti-social behaviors that will actually make me verbalize my annoyance.
dtagames · 4h ago
This a terrific deep-dive into pet parenting and its rewards, motivations, and risks for both the human and the dog.
As a lifelong rescuer of pit bulls and other "problem" dogs, I can see how that role I've picked for myself aligns and contrasts with how others view human-dog relationships.
donnachangstein · 4h ago
> As a lifelong rescuer of pit bulls and other "problem" dogs
Don't think scare quotes are appropriate here. Pits are problem dogs; they are the violent schizophrenics of the dog world. Hope you reconsider your stance every time some child gets his face gnawed off by one of these land sharks.
recursivedoubts · 3h ago
Anyone owning a pit who isn't both strong & physically large is putting other people and animals at risk. I have met many, many sweet pits, but all dogs can lose it and if a pit goes many of the pit owners I've seen couldn't do a damned thing about it: they are incredibly powerful animals.
To be honest I think that's what attracts many inappropriate owners to them.
Two pit stories:
I saw a fat guy walking a relatively small pit and took my dogs off to the side, about 20 feet away to let them pass. The pit pulled out of his (inappropriately fastened) muzzle backwards (they are smart dogs) and took a dead no-bark run at my terrier. I had my 35 lb terrier in the air and kicked that dog as hard as I could in the side to get the situation under control.
Our neighbor had a BIG pit named Thor (big guy, he could control the dog, but kept him leashed out front.). Thor got off leash once and came over and messed w/our goats. We had one goat (the smallest) who we kept horns on and Thor found out the hard way that that goat wasn't going down w/o a fight. Thor survived but didn't mess w/the goats any more after that.
Again, I like most of the pits I've met, but I see a lot of irresponsible owners.
xattt · 3h ago
It’s hard to engage in rational good-faith discussion about problem dog breeds because most folks have already made up their mind, and there’s no changing it.
The chances of someone surrendering their dog to which they are bonded after reading a comment is unlikely. The chances of someone with the opposite opinion adopting a pitbull are similar.
Hrun0 · 3h ago
> Don't think scare quotes are appropriate here. Pits are problem dogs; they are the violent schizophrenics of the dog world.
I don't think so.
ivraatiems · 1h ago
The person you replied to: "I'm trying to help animals in need!"
You: "How dare you do this well intentioned, possibly dangerous thing?! Also, let me insult the animals you love!"
What is even a little bit constructive about your post? If you want the parent to change why would you write like this?
psunavy03 · 3h ago
No breed of dog is a "violent schizophrenic." Poorly-raised dogs of any breed are dangerous. The problem is bad humans, not bad dogs.
micromacrofoot · 3h ago
There are over 200 breeds of dog, it doesn't really track that only 2-3 breeds would be significantly more violent than the others.
We don't have enough data to be conclusive one way or the other, but if you look at the occurrence of strays and breed ownership by socioeconomic status, pit bull breeds are also very high on these lists.
This tracks with human data to some extent: people from lower socioeconomic groups are more often perpetrators and victims of violence.
Looking at breed specific violence and coming to a conclusion about temperament is very similar to looking at race specific graduation rates and coming to a conclusion about intelligence.
D13Fd · 3h ago
> There are over 200 breeds of dog, it doesn't really track that only 2-3 breeds would be significantly more violent than the others.
Why not? There are breeds that are taller or shorter, high-energy or low-energy, great hunters or awful hunters, and so on. And it’s not a mystery why some breeds got this way: they were specifically bred for it.
micromacrofoot · 3h ago
> There are breeds that are taller or shorter, high-energy or low-energy, great hunters or awful hunters, and so on
there are dozens of breeds in each of these categories — we don't have a single breed of dog that's 5x faster than all the others
2muchcoffeeman · 3h ago
While I don’t think the dogs are at fault, I’m not sure your argument follows. Why can’t we breed aggression in only a small number of breeds? We don’t breed short legs into all the breeds.
micromacrofoot · 1h ago
asked in another way: where are all the aggressive offshoot breeds from pitbulls? there are a wide variety of short-legged dog breeds; corgis, dachsunds, basset hounds, scotties, bulldogs... there's an enormous variety there... yet we're to expect that aggressive dogs are limited to a very specific appearance (seriously, an order of magnitude higher than almost all other breeds)? the data absolutely stinks
there are multiple other factors (social, socioeconomic) that are a better predictor of behaviors that can also be applied to humans
recursivedoubts · 3h ago
There are relatively few fatal dog maulings, but when there is one it's usually a pit or a rot:
I think you should have to be able to deadlift 350 lbs to own either.
bloomingeek · 4h ago
My spin, dogs, as an example pet, are a good way to practice empathy. It doesn't always translate, but if you can be loving and empathetic to a dog, you can surely began to be that way to humans.
we have a good relationship with the children we raised, along with their children. Our dog, however, is always with us and it just feels good to watch after her. We don't consider her a child, just a very good, non-verbal friend.
netdevphoenix · 4h ago
I would not necessarily call that friendship as your dog depends on you for its survival and is at your mercy. You are the one who defines the terms of the relationship. A friendship involves two individuals who are equally empowered to develop the friendship. A dog-human bond not so much. My two cents
eyelidlessness · 4h ago
I would not presume to define the parameters of friendship for others, as it can vary wildly between people and even between a given person’s friendships.
There is certainly an imbalance between dog and human authority/autonomy/agency, but that is not the only dynamic in the relationship. And it’s not necessarily the defining dynamic, nor is it consistently applicable.
kevin_thibedeau · 4h ago
Fortunately, dogs aren't cynics.
jhanschoo · 2h ago
Heh, I appreciate the pun!
absurdo · 2h ago
But nature is.
stormfather · 4h ago
Idk, my dad was my best friend growing up and I never fed him.
munificent · 2h ago
Your dad may have been your best friend, but that doesn't mean you were your dad's best friend.
The parent-child relationship is asymmetric in ways that are often not as visible to the child as they are a parent. There's a reason why for generations, parents have been responding to their childrens' arguments with "when you're a parent, you'll understand".
micromacrofoot · 4h ago
yeah but your dad wouldn't die as a result
stormfather · 4h ago
No, I (the child) am the dog that would die if it weren't fed in this situation. Sorry that was confusing.
yoyohello13 · 3h ago
My wife and I got a puppy before we had kids and I will say it was an interesting "taste of things to come." Of course it's only superficially comparable, but the puppy experience definitely gave me practice in staying calm while sleep deprived and stressed.
I had a dog for decades (not the same).
The trend of dog craziness of some people in the last 5-10 years belongs to a specific psychiatric situation (depression, personality disorder, OCD?). On the other side many, mostly childless, women feel some kind of loneliness and adopt a dog. The dynamics of pet love has many paths.
renewiltord · 4h ago
A recent car crash in San Francisco killed a man and his dog and many people on Reddit reacted with a comment like “Nooo! Not the dog!”
I thought that was ridiculous because these are just animals. It sucks when they die but it’s not the end of the world.
Another car nearby killed a little child and her father and that one was much more horrific to me.
But now it makes sense: to these people the two incidents were equivalent. I suppose that is normal, what with all the stories of animals caring for the young of other animals. Neotenic characteristics seem to have cross-species impact.
Very cool. Thank you for sharing this.
I-M-S · 4h ago
Animals now play a role that angels and similar religious concepts played in the past - an abstract ideal representing what is Good. It's difficult for a human to win this battle. No dog ever operated a sweatshop, dumped mercury into a river, or siphoned billions off to some tropical island somewhere.
amanaplanacanal · 3h ago
As they say, all dogs go to heaven.
whyage · 3h ago
It baffles the mind that people decry the death of a dog while munching a burger. Cows (or chickens, for that matter) are not less precious than dogs, and yet the vast majority of us eat as much and as many of them as they can afford.
ivm · 2h ago
Humans are remarkably skilled at extending-reducing the range of their empathy, often deep compassion is reserved only for the carefully selected in-group members. It’s even easier to withhold it when it comes to other beings.
adsharma · 3h ago
This is one of the reasons why I dislike "cattle, not pets" which is used in the SRE world to explain automation.
tacocataco · 1h ago
Is it legal to have a dog burger?
ninetyninenine · 3h ago
It’s not baffling. Dogs appeal to our paternal and maternal instincts. They have evolved to hijack it.
They reproduce faster then us so puppies are able to get cuter then babies over generations and thus they are out competing us.
johnea · 1h ago
I would only agree to this to the extent that humans have engineered this "evolution".
That's why they're called "breeds", because humans bred them.
They're bred for cuteness, violence, but mostly they're bred for profit.
The "pet industry" is a rapid growth segment of the economy. If a pet is "part of the family", then isn't the "pet industry" basically a slave trade?
bitwize · 4h ago
When tragedy befalls an animal, we tend to be more upset about it because animals are innocent. They're not aware like we are and can't make better choices when we can, so when they get caught at the wrong place at the wrong time, it's somehow sadder to a stranger than if it were an adult human.
You see this in cinema. We're relieved that the cat survives in Alien, even though we just watched several humans die horribly. And we kind of feel like John Wick's Roaring Rampage of Revenge is justified after the Russian mafia kills his dog.
j_timberlake · 3h ago
They're not innocent, they kill even when they're not hungry. If people evolved empathy towards them because historically they killed pests, that would explain why people love little murderers. The fact that the animals "don't know any better" isn't causal, mosquitoes don't know any better either.
ninetyninenine · 3h ago
We evolved empathy towards them because of superficial cute features. Like puppy dog eyes and other endearing child like features. Dogs are evolving towards a parasitic role by hijacking our biological instincts to care for things that are small and cute. This instinct never evolved t the point where it specifically only applies to human cuteness because such selection pressure was unneeded. There were human babies and that’s it.
Dogs took advantage of this situation and they evolved to hijack our paternal and maternal instincts. Now there is selection pressure. But note dogs reproduce much much faster than humans so this will be an evolutionary arms race where dogs get cuter and humans become less interested in dogs. The first round comes when the people who have dogs instead of kids fail to reproduce. Also Expect an increase in dog allergies over time.
whycome · 4h ago
> When tragedy befalls an animal, we tend to be more upset about it because animals are innocent.
This never gets reconciled with the reality of factory farms and mass meat production. It’s certainly a type of cognitive dissonance. In a hundred years we might look back on the now with horror (more generalized anyway).
SoftTalker · 3h ago
Because most people don't keep cows, pigs, and chickens as pets.
People who grow up even on small, non-factory farms see these animals as products for sale or economic assets, not companions. And even the dogs and cats are likely to be utilized for work as much as companionship.
umeshunni · 3h ago
> In a hundred years we might look back on the now with horror (more generalized anyway).
You don't have to go a hundred years - most non-western societies look at western fascination with dogs and pets with horror, especially when couples with low rates of marriage, population collapse etc.
munificent · 2h ago
I live in Seattle where the local highly progressive animal-centric culture is probably the vanguard of what this article is talking about. I think about it all the time.
I believe there are a few things leading many people to choose pets instead of children to fulfill their desire to nurture:
1. The trauma theory of psychology.
Pop psychology today seems to assume that babies are born perfectly mentally healthy, except for any genetic mental illnesses they inherited from their parents. Then at some point, if they're unlucky, they experience some sort of trauma, often at the hands of their parents. That trauma inflicts a mental illness on them. They can treat it with therapy and/or meds, but the assumption is that the illness is irrevocable. (Don't believe me? The next time you're talking to a friend and they bring up therapy or mental health medication, ask them when they think they'll be cured and can stop.)
The implication here is that as a parent, you've got basically nowhere to go but down with regards to your kid's mental health. If you are yourself perfectly mentally healthy and pass on no predispositions to your kid, and you parent them flawlessly 24/7 for eighteen years and dodge every possible trauma, then congrats you didn't fuck them up. Anything less than that and you're a bad parent. Which leads to...
2. Impossible parenting standards.
Media is constantly filled with all of the various ways a parent can do a bad job. Start the car moving down the driveway before they have their seatbelt on? Bad parent. Let them walk to the park on their own and risk being abducted? Bad parent. Give them access to junk food? Bad parent. Don't put them in enough extracurricular activities to pad their college application letter a decade from now? Bad parent. Too many extracurricular activities so they don't have enough free time in which to learn initiative? Bad parent.
It is unending and demoralizing the ways in which parents are made to constantly feel they are inadequate. When I was a kid, if another kid fell playing and broke their arm, it was just "OK, kids get hurt." Today, it's "Why did you let them do that?" Parents have never spent more time with their children than they do today, but our culture still tells us it's not enough. Or, if it does, they tell us it's too much.
Mix that with the previous point, and having a kid with any mental health challenges is not just a tragedy but your fault as a parent.
3. Long-term pessimism.
I know many people who truly do believe the world is fucked because of climate change and politics. Not only do they not believe any potential children of theirs would be raised in a world worse than they one they grew up in, they don't even have faith that world will be functionally habitable at all.
Best case, they believe their children may thrive only because they happen to be born into privilege while other children in poorer locations will suffer catastrophically from climate change. So the best outcome they can imagine is a profound failing of moral justice.
Meanwhile, consider pets:
1. Rescued from trauma.
Most pet owners get their pets from shelters. The animal may actually have had trauma before being adopted, but the owner wasn't morally responsible. Instead, they are the rescuer that saved the animal from further trauma. If the animal bounces back and has great behavior, then it's a testament to the amazing resilence of animals and the benefits of compassionate ownership. If the animal always has behavioral issues, well it's not their fault they were traumatized and what a good owner they have to take care of them in spite of those challenges.
2. High but meetable standards
Standards for pet ownership are certainly high here too. Long gone are the days of putting the dog in a doghouse in the backyard and giving them a scoop out of the giant cheap bag of Alpo every day. Pets are expected to be fed healthy food, kept inside and safe, given good vet care, and lots of interaction and enrichment.
Those standards are high but attainable. You can just do those things and feel like a good pet owner. And the pet will certainly make you feel like a good pet owner. Their expectations are low and it's easy to exceed them.
3. Shorter life span
If you believe the world is doomed, then a living being that will never outlive you and have to figure out how to make its without your support is a blessing. You don't have to feel guilty about the fact that in a thousand tiny ways, you contributed to climate change that will end up harming a loved one decades from now.
eagerpace · 4h ago
Dating later in life with children and this is something I don’t need research to tell me. If you’re in your 30s-40s without kids and a dog, we’re of totally different mindsets.
tacocataco · 2h ago
> If you’re in your 30s-40s without kids and a dog, we’re of totally different mindsets.
I'm broke. As much as it pains me to be without a pet, I dont want to take on additional responsibilities if I am incapable of sufficiently giving the care these living beings need and deserve.
I've considered fostering, as they pay for many things the animals need. Perhaps in the future.
johnea · 1h ago
The most amazing thing to me, is how human pet "parents" ignore the fact that the dog has an actual parent, and the puppy is stolen off of it's actual mother's suckling tit, and handed to a human while it's still an infant, so that it bonds with the human, not it's actual mother.
As in many things, most people are willing to ignore any aspect that is not what's in their face, and appealing to them.
There are many other aspects to the thoughtless use of other animals to assuage a human's mental illness.
One of the main ones is projection: the animal can't speak, or otherwise precisely express themselves. Into this silence, the human is able to inject whatever narrative they desire. This leads to people claiming that the animal is much more responsive to their needs, and provides greater solace than another human. This solace is purely in the mind of the beholder. No one knows what the dog is thinking, therefore it's thinking exactly what we want it to think.
Another aspect of the entire pet issue, that I haven't seen otherwise mentioned in the comments, is the disruption to the public peace caused by many dogs. I have seen a couple of comments about dog shit, which is a major problem, but noise is also a significant issue.
Both of these are primarily the fault of negligent owners, which are the overwhelming majority of modern US pet owners.
ivraatiems · 1h ago
I think a lot of people, myself included, are acutely aware of this... which is why I adopted an adult rescue, not a puppy. Not everyone does it that way.
esseph · 2h ago
I am so tired of seeing the most interesting or actually life impacting subjects getting flagged.
You know what we all need? Another article about LLMs.
johnea · 1h ago
I agree. I think we need an "unflag" link, to allow "do not flag" opinions to also be expressed.
absurdo · 4h ago
Semi-rant:
I’m very disappointed to see such wide adoption of pets, especially dogs, as “replacements” of children in adult lives. I do not think it’s healthy for adults to do this because it infantilizes the adult. It is actually very sad, almost pitiful to see it happen. I think pets are wonderful for children because it helps them to develop a connection with living beings that aren’t humans, to see emotions are a universal trait.
More frequently I see now grown people wheeling their dogs in baby carriages. If this is some cosmic-scale humor by nature because we have overpopulated the planet and it’s intentionally sabotaging the environment, then I’m afraid the joke is on us.
nkrisc · 4h ago
Advertising to pet owners is reaching absurd levels. Pet owners are now “pet parents” and the marketing is basically identical to marketing directed at new (real) parents.
While there are some surface level similarities to owning a pet and having children, it’s absurd to conflate the two as if they are equivalent.
creata · 4h ago
I don't think most people using silly terms like "pet parents" are actually conflating parenthood with caring for a pet.
afavour · 3h ago
Not most but there definitely is a weird subculture out there.
The /r/petfree subreddit is hysterical in the opposite direction at times but there is some fascinating content on there sometimes. An example: a social media post of someone mourning their child's death, folks commenting about the death of their pets as if it were comparable:
> My three year old killed by a drunk driver. A lady said I know how you feel, my dog died last year
> Idk about you but I loved my dogs more than anything. I felt guilty for a long time bc I sobbed for days after each was put down but didn't cry at my cousin or grandfather's funeral
> I loved my dog and mom exactly the same, and their deaths both felt the same
> It's been scientifically proven that a dog death can effect you more than a human one
absurdo · 2h ago
Why would someone go out of their way to make r/petfree to demonize pet owners is beyond me. But hey, that’s the internet nowadays I guess. Rage fueled machine.
afavour · 1h ago
Well, I'd imagine they'd do it because they are frustrated with pet owners. Half the content on that sub is people bringing their dogs to places dogs shouldn't go and I share a frustration with that. I'm not about to curate an entire community dedicated to it, but still.
nkrisc · 4h ago
I don’t know what percentage are sincere about it, but I have absolutely heard it used in advertising in ways that seemed completely straight-faced.
neutronicus · 3h ago
People have pretty strong motivation to conflate the two - namely, access to privileges traditionally granted to parents.
Leaving work early to deal with kid(/dog) stuff, public spaces tolerating the presence of your loud, annoying, not-that-clean kid(/dog), an expectation of urban spaces providing places for your kid(/dog) to go to the bathroom. Etc.
TheBigSalad · 4h ago
That's an interesting perspective. As an adult who has both human children and many pets, I disagree that your premise that pets are only valuable for children. We come from cave people who live in big family groups. Modern humans are more isolated and live in relatively small houses, without their extended families. I think it's only natural for us to want to care for animals. And just because a dog isn't as smart, and can't talk doesn't mean it can't be a real friend.
absurdo · 4h ago
> I disagree that your premise that pets are only valuable for children.
Where did you get this premise from?
kirtakat · 2h ago
Not who you were responding to, but in your original statement you wrote "I do not think it’s healthy for adults to do this [sic] I think pets are wonderful for children"
By explicitly calling out that "[they] are wonderful for children" you are implicitly calling into question their value for adults. Whether that was your intention or not, it's certainly how I read your statement.
yoyohello13 · 3h ago
> I do not think it’s healthy for adults to do this because it infantilizes the adult. ... I think pets are wonderful for children because it helps them to develop a connection with living beings that aren’t humans
This quote heavily implies pets are bad for adults. Maybe it wasn't your intent.
NoMoreNicksLeft · 3h ago
>I disagree that your premise that pets are only valuable for children.
On r/poveryfinance and similar subreddits, one can always find someone complaining that they're about to become homeless because they can't afford rent, begging others to please tell them what line item can be cut from their budget to make it work, the conceit being that they consider every item essential. Mixed in among the electrical and water and costs of commuting to work will be $100/month for dog food or cat litter or whatever.
Not only is there no value there, there is, quite often, anti-value. And this is just the quantifiable stuff, these people follow their dogs around picking up their feces with their hands.
neutronicus · 3h ago
Yes, rent itself is generally cheaper in the absence of pets.
bloomingeek · 4h ago
Almost anything, humane, to lower the earth's population, is fine by me. Do some people go a little overboard? Certainly. Are they having fun and not hurting anyone else at the same time? Excellent!
I think the only entity sabotaging the environment is we humans. Nature deals with what it's given by adapting. I do think the baby carriages are hilarious, unless it's a geriatric pet.
guywithahat · 4h ago
I have the same thought; it messes with peoples value systems and just isn't healthy for a lot of people. I wouldn't say it ruins lives but people will do nothing but work and tend to their 3 dogs, which inhibits personal development or meaningful progress in life.
Plus nobody enforces a lot of health and safety laws anymore, it's not uncommon to see dogs in grocery stores for example, despite it being illegal and gross.
__turbobrew__ · 3h ago
> personal development or meaningful progress in life
What exactly are people not achieving when they have a dog?
I bought my first home in my twenties, have a very high paying job, I have good friends, I play music sometimes, I grow my own food, I can cook better than most restaurants, I am happy most of the time, I am reasonably physically fit and can climb a mountain (literally).
What meaningful progress is my dog holding me back from?
Ajedi32 · 3h ago
As the article says, for some people it serves as a substitute for having kids/a family. Life is about more than your personal well being. Maybe you disagree; there are certainly a lot of moral frameworks under which that's not a true statement, and unless there's a higher power to appeal to nobody can tell you that your chosen philosophy is wrong. But all of us will someday grow old and die, and dogs aren't going be our legacy, nor will they be taking care of us in our old age. Just something to consider...
theonething · 1h ago
> people will do nothing but work and tend to their 3 dogs, which inhibits personal development or meaningful progress in life.
GP was referring to this group of people whose lives consist of only work and their pets. Clearly you do not fall into this group. In fact, given your lifestyle (a healthy, balanced one), I'd say a pet has great potential to further enhance personal development.
guywithahat · 3h ago
Every person who has a dog/cat isn't stiffed, just that they progress less on average.
What I've seen is they aren't getting into real relationships or developing hobbies, and are instead becoming attached to their pets. I know it's dismal but the loneliness associated with being single is supposed to motivate you into improving yourself and finding a partner. By spending money and a few hours a day with your pet, you're not doing other (potentially more real) things.
yoyohello13 · 3h ago
This has really not been my experience at all. If anything, having a dog is an excuse to get out of the house. Hell, my best friend found his wife because they both loved dogs.
guywithahat · 1h ago
I'm happy to hear you like your dog, but if you spent any time caring for your dog then that's time you can't spend doing other things. It's less of a subjective qualitative analysis and more of a quantitative one
I-M-S · 3h ago
Dunno, if the alternative is actively destructive behaviour, it might be good for society for people to find meaning in pets. It's also good for those individuals and animals in question as well. I'm not sure we're missing out on many Requiems, Anna Kareninas, and Space Odysseys because of it.
technothrasher · 4h ago
> people will do nothing but work and tend to their 3 dogs, which inhibits personal development or meaningful progress in life.
If that connection with their dogs is what brings them personal fulfillment, why is that not meaningful? And can they not personally develop within that chosen life path?
XorNot · 4h ago
Personal development and progress of ... what?
What are people not building too that you think they should? What have you built that's so great?
iugtmkbdfil834 · 3h ago
I am sympathetic to this view even if I think it understates the value pets may bring. I do agree that people, as they tend to do, push the limits on what is socially acceptable to some silly degree, but, I also accept, that as long they don't hurt anyone in the process, it might be ok.
The issue is.. pets are still pets. And to your point, unbehaved dog can be dangerous to its immediate surrounding. I won't go into details, but our dog is very protective of our kid, so there are places I will not take it ( or at least not without precautions ).. and this is what I see less and less: responsible behavior.
But I will say this, dog was a great training for a kid, when it came for us, because we saw some very similar issues repeat themselves.
The issue is what it has always been: people.
absurdo · 3h ago
I avoided going into all the myriad of things that pets are good for because it’s not the point. I grew up with a small backyard graveyard of all the pets I’ve had over the years, some given some adopted some stray, so I’m very far from anti-pet.
What I’m really poking at here in the joke behind the rant sort of way is a suspicion, a conspiracy by nature to suppress our reproduction capabilities by slowly not only making us infertile in greater numbers, but steering us towards adopting pets instead of humans as a prank, to make us see the animals we are in an animal kingdom.
iugtmkbdfil834 · 3h ago
Interesting, I will admit that I missed that interpretation, but the coffee still didn't kick in yet. In that sense, it would be an interesting expansion on the jokes of Carlin ( how would planet deal with such unhealthy surface nuissance? ). I did internally chuckle so thank you for this morning smile.
ecshafer · 4h ago
Dogs shouldnt be in grocery stores, bars or restaurants.
amanaplanacanal · 3h ago
Have you seen the other people in there? How are the dogs worse?
tcoff91 · 4h ago
Most of the time a dog is in a stroller it’s because the dog is old or injured. I don’t think many people do it just to make the dog seem more like a child.
eloisius · 2h ago
You should see east Asia. There are more dog strollers than baby strollers.
theonething · 3h ago
Not in my observations. Where I am, people put their little dogs in strollers, dress them up with hair clips, etc and stroll them around while they're shopping at Macy's etc.
absurdo · 2h ago
This is predominantly what I have also seen.
notesinthefield · 3h ago
I wonder what you think people who dont have children and opt for pets thought about or went through prior to making that decision? I personally dont care for children and cannot think of a universe in which I would want to be a parent - why would I want the stress and strain of coddling a child for two decades?
creata · 4h ago
Can you elaborate on how it "infantilizes the adult"?
nkrisc · 4h ago
That confused me a bit too, but what I suspect is that owning a pet is kind of like having a permanent baby, but without many of the real challenges a human child presents.
Your dog can be cute and child-like and playful for its entire life, but is also far more self-sufficient than a human child is in the first year or two of its life.
It’s kind of like you get to be a make-believe parent without any of the difficult parts.
NoMoreNicksLeft · 1h ago
>That confused me a bit too, but what I suspect is that owning a pet is kind of like having a permanent baby,
No, he's saying that having a puppy is something a child does, something that's normal for children. If you're doing things that only children should be doing, you are infantilizing yourself (changing your brain in ways that prevents you from growing up properly).
NoMoreNicksLeft · 3h ago
>If this is some cosmic-scale humor by nature
I would not blame nature for this. I'm not particularly conspiracy-minded (humans are generally too stupid for supervillain-style conspiracies), but people did this. The only question at all is whether they did it deliberately, or if it was accidental.
>then I’m afraid the joke is on us.
It's definitely on us.
guntars · 3h ago
I can now see why the story was flagged. Based on the discussion, this is not a good look for the HN community.
jmyeet · 3h ago
I'm really starting to believe that capitalism as a Great Filter is the solution to the Fremi Paradox.
Declining birth rates are clearly a response to the deterioating economic conditions of most people. Stagnant real wages, skyrocketing costs, ever-more inaccessible housing and so on. Housing debt, student debt, medical debt. The cost of childcare can reach $3000/month per child. If you want your child to have the best opportunities, it may well cost $1 million or more between all those costs to raise a child. At a time when people can barely provide for themselves.
Of course pets are surrogate children for some people. And even that's being ruined by capitalism as private equity moves into the vet space to squeeze every last dollar from people.
Another aspect to this is social control. One reason Western societies have been relatively stable is the method of control is treats, basically. Social media, pets, smartphones, etc all mollify the masses. In more totalitarian societies, the threat of violence is a more typical method of control. Think of something like the Stasi in East Germany.
The profit motive is destroying the treats. If you're on the verge of homelessness and can barely feed yourself, skyrocketing costs of pet ownership are a real issue. We're rapidly approaching a point where people think they'll never be able to retire and really have nothing to live for.
Rather than the ultra-wealthy being slightly less wealthy so the rest of society, which is necessary for their wealth to exist, can have something good in their lives, we're instead becoming increasingly oppressive. Over-policing, militarizing police, crushing protests (as per this last weekend in LA), etc.
Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. And to think, all a lot of people need to be happy is a roof over their head, not having to have 3 jobs and being able to have a dog.
ninetyninenine · 3h ago
From a biological perspective dogs are parasites. They are hijacking our biological maternal instincts and replacing children.
They drain resources and get free care while offering no benefit other than satisfying maternal urges which were designed to work on human babies. Puppies are 100 percent part of the reason for the westernized world’s population problem.
Arainach · 3h ago
>Puppies are 100 percent part of the reason for the westernized world’s population problem.
I know dozens of couples who were pairs of high earners but one quit their job to stay at home with their child because it was cheaper than paying for child care, but sure, tell yourself it's the dogs.
ninetyninenine · 3h ago
Don’t be biased because you love dogs. Face the truth.
The economy IS a factor.
But sinking resources into a dog that offers no evolutionary or biological benefit IS ALSO a factor.
There is no other way to look at this. You are committing an act of irrationality if you refuse to see dogs from a biological perspective.
Porn sits in the same area. Hijacking biological instincts to prevent reproduction.
We are looking at multiple causal sources that prevent us from having more children. In the same way men use porn to assuage our sexual urges, many women use dogs to help assuage their maternal instincts. Don’t let your emotions cloud your logic.
This article did not deserve to get flagged simply for offering their own perspective.
Arainach · 3h ago
Dogs have nothing to do with it. People are choosing not to have kids, especially in America, because they can barely pay for rent, food, and (if they're fortunate) healthcare for themselves. Going out to eat is a luxury that even software engineers earning 6 figures are having to reevaluate with prices to say nothing of other entertainment.
Third places and opportunities to meet people are greatly reduced because everything's taken over by venture capital chains and so expensive, and even if you meet someone the odds of the two of you making enough money to afford to raise a child is low.
If you have that money, you're probably educated enough to see that life for your child will be significantly worse than life for you right now - the rise of authoritarianism, climate change, the active ongoing destruction of American economic power and soft political power, the concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands, disinformation causing massive chunks of the country to oppose science, education, and other things, discrimination based on gender and race....we're in for some very hard times and it takes a certain mindset to decide that you want to subject a child you love to all of it.
It's not the dogs.
psunavy03 · 3h ago
The Western world does not have a "population problem" despite the feverish fantasies of right-wing nutjobs.
unstablediffusi · 2h ago
are those right-wing nutjobs in the room with us right now?
You’re ignorant. Every scientific measurement from every major statistical source about these things knows that there is a population problem. It’s not even a right or left thing it’s reality. It’s science. I can source dozens of neutral sources.
Look it up yourself. This is not a political issue. This is a logistical one and it is highly verified through science.
Arainach · 3h ago
>I can source dozens of neutral sources. Look it up yourself.
The anthem of people spewing bullshit across the internet for 30 years.
I once watched a woman hold her little dog over the glass at the pizza bar in Whole Foods. Was waiting for the dog to drop a free sausage link onto the pizza below.
Placing dogs into shopping carts is another one. Dogs rub their dirty buttholes on the same surfaces where you later place your fruits and vegetables.
But make no mistake, they're still animals and are not predictable. I would never bring a dog with me outside to do anything other than go for a walk, always on a leash. They really dont belong in public spaces. I've seen and heard too many stories of dogs suddenly not being the perfect precious animal their owner claims and it bites or attacks another animal or person. Then when they do the owners insist the victim must have done something wrong and take zero responsibility.
This seems a bit extreme. I think dog owners have a responsibility to make sure their animal is trained and able to be controlled near people, but outdoor public spaces (parks/plazas, cafes with outdoor seating whose management is dog friendly), seem fine.
However, the responsibility for your dog's behavior extends even outside of public space. I was bitten by a dog in the lobby of a friend's building. The dog was leashed and presumably just returning from a walk. Later, I heard that some inspections in that building had to be rescheduled because a dog bit one of the inspectors while inside one of the condos (not sure if it was the same dog). Being in a non-public space in no way reduces the owner's responsibility.
No, they treat them as better than people.
Because in their value system, animals are moral objects but not moral subjects. By that, I mean that actions done to animals can have moral weight. If you take a sick kitten and nurse it back to health, you are a good person. If you kick a puppy, you are a bad person.
But the animal itself (according to this culture) carries no moral responsibility. If a dog bites someone, it's not an evil dog. It's not the dog's fault. It was just raised poorly, or traumatized as a puppy, or the owner should have kept it leashed better, etc.
Thus animals are always morally pure, but people can be bad people. I kind of get where the value system is coming from: animals really are on the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to power and agency, so it does make sense to think of them as mostly receivers of moral actions. But some people take that really far.
We absolutely don't deserve them.
With no cognitive dissonance, I can also recognize that some dogs can be dangerous, and in extreme cases, need to be put down. However, I would point out that the vast majority of misbehaved dogs can and should be trained out of their bad behavior, so it's nearly always their owners' responsibilities.
I’m in tears.
As a lifelong rescuer of pit bulls and other "problem" dogs, I can see how that role I've picked for myself aligns and contrasts with how others view human-dog relationships.
Don't think scare quotes are appropriate here. Pits are problem dogs; they are the violent schizophrenics of the dog world. Hope you reconsider your stance every time some child gets his face gnawed off by one of these land sharks.
To be honest I think that's what attracts many inappropriate owners to them.
Two pit stories:
I saw a fat guy walking a relatively small pit and took my dogs off to the side, about 20 feet away to let them pass. The pit pulled out of his (inappropriately fastened) muzzle backwards (they are smart dogs) and took a dead no-bark run at my terrier. I had my 35 lb terrier in the air and kicked that dog as hard as I could in the side to get the situation under control.
Our neighbor had a BIG pit named Thor (big guy, he could control the dog, but kept him leashed out front.). Thor got off leash once and came over and messed w/our goats. We had one goat (the smallest) who we kept horns on and Thor found out the hard way that that goat wasn't going down w/o a fight. Thor survived but didn't mess w/the goats any more after that.
Again, I like most of the pits I've met, but I see a lot of irresponsible owners.
The chances of someone surrendering their dog to which they are bonded after reading a comment is unlikely. The chances of someone with the opposite opinion adopting a pitbull are similar.
I don't think so.
You: "How dare you do this well intentioned, possibly dangerous thing?! Also, let me insult the animals you love!"
What is even a little bit constructive about your post? If you want the parent to change why would you write like this?
We don't have enough data to be conclusive one way or the other, but if you look at the occurrence of strays and breed ownership by socioeconomic status, pit bull breeds are also very high on these lists.
This tracks with human data to some extent: people from lower socioeconomic groups are more often perpetrators and victims of violence.
Looking at breed specific violence and coming to a conclusion about temperament is very similar to looking at race specific graduation rates and coming to a conclusion about intelligence.
Why not? There are breeds that are taller or shorter, high-energy or low-energy, great hunters or awful hunters, and so on. And it’s not a mystery why some breeds got this way: they were specifically bred for it.
there are dozens of breeds in each of these categories — we don't have a single breed of dog that's 5x faster than all the others
there are multiple other factors (social, socioeconomic) that are a better predictor of behaviors that can also be applied to humans
https://www.statista.com/chart/15446/breeds-of-dog-involved-...
I think you should have to be able to deadlift 350 lbs to own either.
we have a good relationship with the children we raised, along with their children. Our dog, however, is always with us and it just feels good to watch after her. We don't consider her a child, just a very good, non-verbal friend.
There is certainly an imbalance between dog and human authority/autonomy/agency, but that is not the only dynamic in the relationship. And it’s not necessarily the defining dynamic, nor is it consistently applicable.
The parent-child relationship is asymmetric in ways that are often not as visible to the child as they are a parent. There's a reason why for generations, parents have been responding to their childrens' arguments with "when you're a parent, you'll understand".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blondi
I thought that was ridiculous because these are just animals. It sucks when they die but it’s not the end of the world.
Another car nearby killed a little child and her father and that one was much more horrific to me.
But now it makes sense: to these people the two incidents were equivalent. I suppose that is normal, what with all the stories of animals caring for the young of other animals. Neotenic characteristics seem to have cross-species impact.
Very cool. Thank you for sharing this.
They reproduce faster then us so puppies are able to get cuter then babies over generations and thus they are out competing us.
That's why they're called "breeds", because humans bred them.
They're bred for cuteness, violence, but mostly they're bred for profit.
The "pet industry" is a rapid growth segment of the economy. If a pet is "part of the family", then isn't the "pet industry" basically a slave trade?
You see this in cinema. We're relieved that the cat survives in Alien, even though we just watched several humans die horribly. And we kind of feel like John Wick's Roaring Rampage of Revenge is justified after the Russian mafia kills his dog.
Dogs took advantage of this situation and they evolved to hijack our paternal and maternal instincts. Now there is selection pressure. But note dogs reproduce much much faster than humans so this will be an evolutionary arms race where dogs get cuter and humans become less interested in dogs. The first round comes when the people who have dogs instead of kids fail to reproduce. Also Expect an increase in dog allergies over time.
This never gets reconciled with the reality of factory farms and mass meat production. It’s certainly a type of cognitive dissonance. In a hundred years we might look back on the now with horror (more generalized anyway).
People who grow up even on small, non-factory farms see these animals as products for sale or economic assets, not companions. And even the dogs and cats are likely to be utilized for work as much as companionship.
You don't have to go a hundred years - most non-western societies look at western fascination with dogs and pets with horror, especially when couples with low rates of marriage, population collapse etc.
I believe there are a few things leading many people to choose pets instead of children to fulfill their desire to nurture:
1. The trauma theory of psychology.
Pop psychology today seems to assume that babies are born perfectly mentally healthy, except for any genetic mental illnesses they inherited from their parents. Then at some point, if they're unlucky, they experience some sort of trauma, often at the hands of their parents. That trauma inflicts a mental illness on them. They can treat it with therapy and/or meds, but the assumption is that the illness is irrevocable. (Don't believe me? The next time you're talking to a friend and they bring up therapy or mental health medication, ask them when they think they'll be cured and can stop.)
The implication here is that as a parent, you've got basically nowhere to go but down with regards to your kid's mental health. If you are yourself perfectly mentally healthy and pass on no predispositions to your kid, and you parent them flawlessly 24/7 for eighteen years and dodge every possible trauma, then congrats you didn't fuck them up. Anything less than that and you're a bad parent. Which leads to...
2. Impossible parenting standards.
Media is constantly filled with all of the various ways a parent can do a bad job. Start the car moving down the driveway before they have their seatbelt on? Bad parent. Let them walk to the park on their own and risk being abducted? Bad parent. Give them access to junk food? Bad parent. Don't put them in enough extracurricular activities to pad their college application letter a decade from now? Bad parent. Too many extracurricular activities so they don't have enough free time in which to learn initiative? Bad parent.
It is unending and demoralizing the ways in which parents are made to constantly feel they are inadequate. When I was a kid, if another kid fell playing and broke their arm, it was just "OK, kids get hurt." Today, it's "Why did you let them do that?" Parents have never spent more time with their children than they do today, but our culture still tells us it's not enough. Or, if it does, they tell us it's too much.
Mix that with the previous point, and having a kid with any mental health challenges is not just a tragedy but your fault as a parent.
3. Long-term pessimism.
I know many people who truly do believe the world is fucked because of climate change and politics. Not only do they not believe any potential children of theirs would be raised in a world worse than they one they grew up in, they don't even have faith that world will be functionally habitable at all.
Best case, they believe their children may thrive only because they happen to be born into privilege while other children in poorer locations will suffer catastrophically from climate change. So the best outcome they can imagine is a profound failing of moral justice.
Meanwhile, consider pets:
1. Rescued from trauma.
Most pet owners get their pets from shelters. The animal may actually have had trauma before being adopted, but the owner wasn't morally responsible. Instead, they are the rescuer that saved the animal from further trauma. If the animal bounces back and has great behavior, then it's a testament to the amazing resilence of animals and the benefits of compassionate ownership. If the animal always has behavioral issues, well it's not their fault they were traumatized and what a good owner they have to take care of them in spite of those challenges.
2. High but meetable standards
Standards for pet ownership are certainly high here too. Long gone are the days of putting the dog in a doghouse in the backyard and giving them a scoop out of the giant cheap bag of Alpo every day. Pets are expected to be fed healthy food, kept inside and safe, given good vet care, and lots of interaction and enrichment.
Those standards are high but attainable. You can just do those things and feel like a good pet owner. And the pet will certainly make you feel like a good pet owner. Their expectations are low and it's easy to exceed them.
3. Shorter life span
If you believe the world is doomed, then a living being that will never outlive you and have to figure out how to make its without your support is a blessing. You don't have to feel guilty about the fact that in a thousand tiny ways, you contributed to climate change that will end up harming a loved one decades from now.
I'm broke. As much as it pains me to be without a pet, I dont want to take on additional responsibilities if I am incapable of sufficiently giving the care these living beings need and deserve.
I've considered fostering, as they pay for many things the animals need. Perhaps in the future.
As in many things, most people are willing to ignore any aspect that is not what's in their face, and appealing to them.
There are many other aspects to the thoughtless use of other animals to assuage a human's mental illness.
One of the main ones is projection: the animal can't speak, or otherwise precisely express themselves. Into this silence, the human is able to inject whatever narrative they desire. This leads to people claiming that the animal is much more responsive to their needs, and provides greater solace than another human. This solace is purely in the mind of the beholder. No one knows what the dog is thinking, therefore it's thinking exactly what we want it to think.
Another aspect of the entire pet issue, that I haven't seen otherwise mentioned in the comments, is the disruption to the public peace caused by many dogs. I have seen a couple of comments about dog shit, which is a major problem, but noise is also a significant issue.
Both of these are primarily the fault of negligent owners, which are the overwhelming majority of modern US pet owners.
You know what we all need? Another article about LLMs.
I’m very disappointed to see such wide adoption of pets, especially dogs, as “replacements” of children in adult lives. I do not think it’s healthy for adults to do this because it infantilizes the adult. It is actually very sad, almost pitiful to see it happen. I think pets are wonderful for children because it helps them to develop a connection with living beings that aren’t humans, to see emotions are a universal trait.
More frequently I see now grown people wheeling their dogs in baby carriages. If this is some cosmic-scale humor by nature because we have overpopulated the planet and it’s intentionally sabotaging the environment, then I’m afraid the joke is on us.
While there are some surface level similarities to owning a pet and having children, it’s absurd to conflate the two as if they are equivalent.
The /r/petfree subreddit is hysterical in the opposite direction at times but there is some fascinating content on there sometimes. An example: a social media post of someone mourning their child's death, folks commenting about the death of their pets as if it were comparable:
https://www.reddit.com/r/petfree/comments/1kzlt3o/people_arg...
> My three year old killed by a drunk driver. A lady said I know how you feel, my dog died last year
> Idk about you but I loved my dogs more than anything. I felt guilty for a long time bc I sobbed for days after each was put down but didn't cry at my cousin or grandfather's funeral
> I loved my dog and mom exactly the same, and their deaths both felt the same
> It's been scientifically proven that a dog death can effect you more than a human one
Leaving work early to deal with kid(/dog) stuff, public spaces tolerating the presence of your loud, annoying, not-that-clean kid(/dog), an expectation of urban spaces providing places for your kid(/dog) to go to the bathroom. Etc.
Where did you get this premise from?
By explicitly calling out that "[they] are wonderful for children" you are implicitly calling into question their value for adults. Whether that was your intention or not, it's certainly how I read your statement.
This quote heavily implies pets are bad for adults. Maybe it wasn't your intent.
On r/poveryfinance and similar subreddits, one can always find someone complaining that they're about to become homeless because they can't afford rent, begging others to please tell them what line item can be cut from their budget to make it work, the conceit being that they consider every item essential. Mixed in among the electrical and water and costs of commuting to work will be $100/month for dog food or cat litter or whatever.
Not only is there no value there, there is, quite often, anti-value. And this is just the quantifiable stuff, these people follow their dogs around picking up their feces with their hands.
I think the only entity sabotaging the environment is we humans. Nature deals with what it's given by adapting. I do think the baby carriages are hilarious, unless it's a geriatric pet.
Plus nobody enforces a lot of health and safety laws anymore, it's not uncommon to see dogs in grocery stores for example, despite it being illegal and gross.
What exactly are people not achieving when they have a dog?
I bought my first home in my twenties, have a very high paying job, I have good friends, I play music sometimes, I grow my own food, I can cook better than most restaurants, I am happy most of the time, I am reasonably physically fit and can climb a mountain (literally).
What meaningful progress is my dog holding me back from?
GP was referring to this group of people whose lives consist of only work and their pets. Clearly you do not fall into this group. In fact, given your lifestyle (a healthy, balanced one), I'd say a pet has great potential to further enhance personal development.
What I've seen is they aren't getting into real relationships or developing hobbies, and are instead becoming attached to their pets. I know it's dismal but the loneliness associated with being single is supposed to motivate you into improving yourself and finding a partner. By spending money and a few hours a day with your pet, you're not doing other (potentially more real) things.
If that connection with their dogs is what brings them personal fulfillment, why is that not meaningful? And can they not personally develop within that chosen life path?
What are people not building too that you think they should? What have you built that's so great?
The issue is.. pets are still pets. And to your point, unbehaved dog can be dangerous to its immediate surrounding. I won't go into details, but our dog is very protective of our kid, so there are places I will not take it ( or at least not without precautions ).. and this is what I see less and less: responsible behavior.
But I will say this, dog was a great training for a kid, when it came for us, because we saw some very similar issues repeat themselves.
The issue is what it has always been: people.
What I’m really poking at here in the joke behind the rant sort of way is a suspicion, a conspiracy by nature to suppress our reproduction capabilities by slowly not only making us infertile in greater numbers, but steering us towards adopting pets instead of humans as a prank, to make us see the animals we are in an animal kingdom.
Your dog can be cute and child-like and playful for its entire life, but is also far more self-sufficient than a human child is in the first year or two of its life.
It’s kind of like you get to be a make-believe parent without any of the difficult parts.
No, he's saying that having a puppy is something a child does, something that's normal for children. If you're doing things that only children should be doing, you are infantilizing yourself (changing your brain in ways that prevents you from growing up properly).
I would not blame nature for this. I'm not particularly conspiracy-minded (humans are generally too stupid for supervillain-style conspiracies), but people did this. The only question at all is whether they did it deliberately, or if it was accidental.
>then I’m afraid the joke is on us.
It's definitely on us.
Declining birth rates are clearly a response to the deterioating economic conditions of most people. Stagnant real wages, skyrocketing costs, ever-more inaccessible housing and so on. Housing debt, student debt, medical debt. The cost of childcare can reach $3000/month per child. If you want your child to have the best opportunities, it may well cost $1 million or more between all those costs to raise a child. At a time when people can barely provide for themselves.
Of course pets are surrogate children for some people. And even that's being ruined by capitalism as private equity moves into the vet space to squeeze every last dollar from people.
Another aspect to this is social control. One reason Western societies have been relatively stable is the method of control is treats, basically. Social media, pets, smartphones, etc all mollify the masses. In more totalitarian societies, the threat of violence is a more typical method of control. Think of something like the Stasi in East Germany.
The profit motive is destroying the treats. If you're on the verge of homelessness and can barely feed yourself, skyrocketing costs of pet ownership are a real issue. We're rapidly approaching a point where people think they'll never be able to retire and really have nothing to live for.
Rather than the ultra-wealthy being slightly less wealthy so the rest of society, which is necessary for their wealth to exist, can have something good in their lives, we're instead becoming increasingly oppressive. Over-policing, militarizing police, crushing protests (as per this last weekend in LA), etc.
Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. And to think, all a lot of people need to be happy is a roof over their head, not having to have 3 jobs and being able to have a dog.
They drain resources and get free care while offering no benefit other than satisfying maternal urges which were designed to work on human babies. Puppies are 100 percent part of the reason for the westernized world’s population problem.
I know dozens of couples who were pairs of high earners but one quit their job to stay at home with their child because it was cheaper than paying for child care, but sure, tell yourself it's the dogs.
The economy IS a factor.
But sinking resources into a dog that offers no evolutionary or biological benefit IS ALSO a factor.
There is no other way to look at this. You are committing an act of irrationality if you refuse to see dogs from a biological perspective.
Porn sits in the same area. Hijacking biological instincts to prevent reproduction.
We are looking at multiple causal sources that prevent us from having more children. In the same way men use porn to assuage our sexual urges, many women use dogs to help assuage their maternal instincts. Don’t let your emotions cloud your logic.
This article did not deserve to get flagged simply for offering their own perspective.
Third places and opportunities to meet people are greatly reduced because everything's taken over by venture capital chains and so expensive, and even if you meet someone the odds of the two of you making enough money to afford to raise a child is low.
If you have that money, you're probably educated enough to see that life for your child will be significantly worse than life for you right now - the rise of authoritarianism, climate change, the active ongoing destruction of American economic power and soft political power, the concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands, disinformation causing massive chunks of the country to oppose science, education, and other things, discrimination based on gender and race....we're in for some very hard times and it takes a certain mindset to decide that you want to subject a child you love to all of it.
It's not the dogs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_fer...
Look it up yourself. This is not a political issue. This is a logistical one and it is highly verified through science.
The anthem of people spewing bullshit across the internet for 30 years.