> The U.S., for instance, has a 2.5 percent tariff on cars imported from Germany, while Germany has a ten percent tariff on American cars. In addition, Germany’s value-added tax is remitted on exports but charged on imports. As a result, while the logos of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Volkswagen are seen all over American roads, those of Ford and General Motors are a rare sight in Germany.
What does that part about VAT have to do with this? VAT is essentially a sales tax with a more involved collection process.
The big difference in collections is that VAT is collected at each step of the chain of manufacture and distribution but refunded if the next step is not to a consumer, whereas in sales tax it is only collected on the final sale to a consumer.
As for why VAT is remitted on exports, it is the same reason why if GM builds a Tahoe in their factory in Arlington, Texas and sells it to a dealer or consumer that is not in Texas they do not pay Texas sales tax. Sales tax and VAT are both destination based. Exports, whether from Texas or Germany, are not to the final consumer and so VAT and sales tax are not owed.
Saying that VAT has anything to do with why BMW is more common than GM in Germany makes as much sense as saying that sales tax is why GM is more common than BMW in Texas.
bitshiftfaced · 4h ago
German car makers deduct VAT on machinery, equipment, factory supplies, and sometimes even utilities or specific components. Some US states offer car manufacturers tax exceptions on things like raw materials, but it is by no means apples to apples. When BMW builds a car in Germany, it enters the show floor free of embedded taxes on inputs. Thats not necessarily the case for US cars
Another important difference has to do with the size of the VAT tax compared to single-stage taxes. For example, in the US if you taxed 19% on inputs every step of the way, no one would be able to afford the final sticker price. Instead, the US taxes a much smaller amount but does not refund this like the VAT system, and the end consumer tax is the same small percentage. VAT can be much higher because it avoids the cascading tax effect. In the end maybe 19% tax was collected on the manufacture and sale in both the US and Germany, and all you changed was one having a higher tax versus cost but the sticker price evened out in the end.
Because of this difference in the two tax systems, VAT can be, and is, much higher than US state/local tax. But then, this means that differences in tariffs creates a compounding effect. A German manufacturer can sell to a US end consumer on average about: 100% cost + 2.5% tariff + 102.5% * (8.5% consumption tax) = 111% after tax cost. On the other hand, if Ford builds in the US and sells to a German end consumer, then the calculation goes: 100% cost + 10% tariff +110% * (19% VAT) = 131% after tax cost. So while Germany's VAT is 10.5% higher than the average US sales tax, and equal to the VAT any German would pay in Germany, its actually almost double that amount when you take into account the compounding affect of Germany's higher tariffs.
In short, the differences in the two tax systems result in systemically higher tax rates for VAT. And this means that EU car manufacturers do see a trade advantage in terms of selling to EU end consumers compared to US manufacturers selling to EU end consumers (when compared to either selling in the US) since the final after-tax cost calculation is multiplicative.
orwin · 3h ago
That's because sales taxes are even more shitty than VAT, it's not one of the many issues with VAT.
I actually dislike all consumption taxes, but I find myself defending VAT way too much on this platform :/
tpm · 53m ago
> VAT can be, and is, much higher than US state/local tax.
> And this means that EU car manufacturers do see a trade advantage in terms of selling to EU...
What is never mentioned in these discussions is that high VAT means higher prices as a whole and that has a chilling effect on consumer spending. German (and all other EU) manufacturers have a disadvantage of a smaller home market. This is then compounded by having other taxes on gas (+VAT too of course), which is much more expensive than in the US. So it's simply less affordable to have a car in the EU. And as a result, a high VAT and other taxes are not a competitive advantage for any local industry. This is different to tariffs or direct support, which are an advantage.
coliveira · 8h ago
Funny how, when a policy that was considered completely crazy a few years ago is introduced, there will be an army of people trying to find every justification for that policy to become normalized.
aqme28 · 8h ago
A lot of people derive their politics not from principles, but from association. If my Team is for it and opponents are against it, then I am for it.
roenxi · 7h ago
Policies don't just appear from the aether; it takes quite a big push to get a government to move in one direction or another. They are sedentary beasts by nature. So it is a safe bet that every implemented policy has a number of people who quite like it, but the community that likes it may well be considered fringe up until they prove to have the numbers and get their preferred policy implemented.
Every flavour of economics enjoys some level of widespread support, there are still a bunch of people who profess a commitment to Marxism. Nobody listens to them (hurrah!) but they're still there. If we had Marxists in charge their articles would probably get a lot more traction though because people want to know what is going to happen next. Ditto things like the gold standard, fiat currency, ultra-low taxes, ultra-high taxes, globalism and economic independence strategies.
TLDR; there is probably a strong selection bias here.
anonfordays · 8h ago
Funny how, both sides read this and think it's the other side you're referencing.
smitty1e · 8h ago
TFA is merely an historical overview, not an argument for or against.
The conclusion is: "We'll see".
One might argue that the sight in question tends toward the Trumpian side of things in general, I suppose.
0xB31B1B · 7h ago
Hillsdale college is a fundamentalist Christian college. “Bible is the literal word of god” stuff. Many people there believe the world is 6000 years old and evolution didn’t happen.
smitty1e · 6h ago
What does that have to do with the article, please?
I should have thought this site a little better than "guilt by association".
watwut · 3h ago
Well, the article contains straight up lies meant to advance conservative agenda, so probably a lot.
smitty1e · 45m ago
Where? Was there anything substantial on offer, or are your replies so many crude fragments from the Argument Clinic?
akaru · 43m ago
Guilt by association? Have you looked at that site? Here’s an excerpt from an adjacent article: “Is it common sense to open the borders of your country and then to spend truckloads of taxpayer dollars to feed, house, and nurture the millions of illegal migrants who have poured in?”
Every other article fellates Trump and talks about how Tucker Carlson showed us that Jan 6 was peaceful and other unhinged if not outright bad faith writing. Jesus fucking christ, talk about common sense…
SSJPython · 7h ago
There's an excellent book by economist Michael Hudson called "America's Protectionist Takeoff" that discusses how the US used tariffs to promote certain industries in order to compete on the world stage. It was part of Alexander Hamilton's American System. Friedrich List, the German economist that wrote "The National System of Political Economy", used the American System to advocate for the same policies in Germany. Germany eventually adopted these policies and became an economic powerhouse themselves. Likewise, Meiji Japan went so far as to adopt the ideas of Friedrich List's economic policies, which resulted in them becoming a great power in a generation.
Tariffs can work, but only if they are targeted towards certain industries/sectors. They can't just be slapped across the board and be expected to work properly. Furthermore, they must be attached to certain KPIs such as exports (i.e., the ability to effectively compete on the international market). Joe Studwell's "How Asia Works" argues that Japan, Korea, and Taiwan all used tariffs and subsidies to promote their own "national champions". In turn, they forced those companies export their products rather than just sell domestically in order to compete. If they didn't meet those export targets, those companies were cut off from state support. Ha Joon Chang, a Korean developmental economist, likens this to raising a child: you spend their initial formative years supporting them until they are able to support themselves without your help.
resters · 7h ago
The last thing Trump's tariffs could be described as is targeted industrial policy. They are intentionally a sledge-hammer. They are intentionally emotional. Intentionally full of jingoistic rhetoric and victimhood rhetoric.
Sadly there has been zero discussion of doing targeted industrial policy (like China's) in the US. The irony is that Trump's approach benefits China tremendously.
crossroadsguy · 8h ago
As someone from a developing economy whenever I see a new .edu domain or .ac.uk domain I immediately try to find the institute’s establishment date. I rarely find anything above 1800s from these two countries- US, UK. I often wonder how much this aspect of a certain country contributes to its (sometimes meteoric) growth and how my own country was actually at the pinnacle once and how it coincided with having literally the best of the educational institutions of that time. But that was past — today a 20 year old institute is considered “old” here.
(Though I wonder how much they contribute? 30-40%? Or more? How does one find this out?)
Anyway, I am sure there are other factors like colonialism and what not. But even if you manage to rob someone else and then by the end of next week your money is gone in the various waterholes of your neighbourhood then you are right where you started ready to rob again until you can’t rob anymore. Are there other, from past, “robber” nations that squandered their loot in watering holes?
I wonder how “meteoric” the decline would be if those same academic institutes are undermined and are stifled, the ones that contributed to the rise.
PS. When I was applying to unis in mainland Europe (because US/UK was too costly) any place below at least a hundred year old was “too nuvo” for my academic taste ;-)
f30e3dfed1c9 · 3h ago
>As someone from a developing economy whenever I see a new .edu domain or .ac.uk domain I immediately try to find the institute’s establishment date. I rarely find anything above 1800s from these two countries- US, UK.
I don't really understand this comment. Are you saying that there are not many colleges or universities in the US founded in the twentieth century? That's not really true. I haven't done this exhaustively, but I took the lists of US colleges and universities for just three US states (CT, ME, MA) from wikipedia. 101 of the 167 listed were founded after 1900.
I don't know exactly how this would work out for all 50 states but I am sure that we'd find many more, likely a large majority, founded after 1900.
There are around 4,000 or so postsecondary degree-granting institutions in the US. I think what's going on here is that you never hear of the vast majority of them.
Or are you saying that you rarely find US academic institutions founded before the 1800s? In that case, well, yeah, the vast majority were not.
mustache_kimono · 8h ago
> When I was applying to unis in mainland Europe (because US/UK was too costly) any place below at least a hundred year old was “too nuvo” for my academic taste ;-)
Hillsdale is a college founded expressly to be a conservative alternative to the Ivies/older liberal arts schools. And its graduates have been very influential in the recent American conservative movement.
f30e3dfed1c9 · 4h ago
> Hillsdale is a college founded expressly to be a conservative alternative to the Ivies/older liberal arts schools.
This is not correct. Hillsdale was founded in 1844 at a time when the contemporary so-called "conservative" movement in the US didn't even exist.
mustache_kimono · 2h ago
> This is not correct.
Oops this is my mistake. I shouldn't have said founded when I didn't actually know. These days it is at the very least marketed as such. A conservative alternative to...
0xB31B1B · 7h ago
Hillsdale college is a fundamentalist Christian college. “Bible is the literal word of god” stuff. Many people there believe the world is 6000 years old and evolution didn’t happen.
xienze · 7h ago
Source for that claim? If you had spent half a second researching before blindly launching into “Christians r dum” rhetoric you’d have noticed that they actually teach a course on evolution: https://www.hillsdale.edu/courses/evolution-biological-diver...
f30e3dfed1c9 · 6h ago
It is not clear at all from the course description what that course teaches:
"An introduction to the vast diversity of life from prokaryotic forms to the eukaryotic vertebrate mammals. This course introduces the beginning biology student to all the major groups of organisms and to their fundamental taxonomic relationships."
"This vast diversity exists because that's the way God made them" is perfectly compatible with that description.
Also, from the description of an event held April 11, 2025:
"Are the special creation of Adam and Eve and the evolution of humans over millions of years compatible? 100 years after the Scopes Trial, the debate continues."
So "they actually teach a course on evolution" seems to fall well short of a full description of exactly what they teach there.
f30e3dfed1c9 · 5h ago
For comparison's sake, here is a description of a more typical Evolutionary Biology course:
"Emphasizes the fundamental evolutionary concepts that provide explanations for the diversification of life on Earth. Specific topics include the evidence for evolution, adaptation by natural selection, speciation, systematics, molecular and genome evolution, and macroevolutionary patterns and processes."
xienze · 5h ago
So once again, do you have anything to back that up other than assumptions?
“They would never teach about evolution at a Christian college”
“OK it says evolution but I bet they don’t mention it”
<- YOU ARE HERE
“OK, they talk about evolution but I bet in a dismissive manner”
f30e3dfed1c9 · 4h ago
> do you have anything to back that up other than assumptions?
Do you? I have obviously not taken the class. Have you? What exactly do they teach in it and how do you know?
0xB31B1B · 7h ago
My sister went there and her and her friends and their families believe these things.
crossroadsguy · 8h ago
I mentioned that part about my own country. I think it was not clear. I’ll try to edit. (Edit: it is clear)
mmastrac · 8h ago
What seems to be lost in these discussions is how the American system rides on global respect for American IP, and that this respect for IP is part of the whole global trade system.
With global trade falling apart, this respect for IP is in grave danger. Robust IP protections contributed significantly to America's wealth.
The short-sighted focus on tariffs and re-shoring manufacturing completely neglects the whole balance and will damage America's position long-term.
coliveira · 8h ago
> Robust IP protections contributed significantly to America's wealth.
Quite the opposite, the US didn't enforce IP protections during the first few years of industrialization, exactly because they were stealing IP from England.
mmastrac · 8h ago
I should clarify that I meant "recently". The US has exported extended copyright laws and other IP protections world-wide for their own benefit.
John23832 · 7h ago
You do realize that that was irrelevant long ago? That context has nothing to do with modern international trade.
coliveira · 5h ago
Ok, so when the US steals it's irrelevant, but when the situation is the opposite now is relevant??
bix6 · 8h ago
Will IP survive?
We’ve all heard of IP theft from China but if Meta doesn’t face domestic punishment for its wholesale theft I really see no legs left to stand on.
ninalanyon · 4h ago
> Will IP survive?
I hope not, at least not in it's present form. As far as copyright goes a return to the Statute of Anne or something similar would provide time for authors to profit from their labours while putting them in the public domain within a reasonable time.
It's just that generally speaking, most of why they're being implemented by the US now are not valid.
dylan604 · 7h ago
There's a difference of applying tariffs to imported goods that are cheaper than domestically produced goods so that their prices are not sold at drastically cheaper prices then making it impossible for imports to compete.
brightball · 7h ago
That’s a really good read but I can’t believe they covered all of that history of tariffs, referenced the firing on Fort Sumter and never pointed out that Fort Sumter existed almost entirely for…tariff collection.
It’s an island right in the middle of the entrance to Charleston Harbor.
fny · 8h ago
I’m open to arguments that tariffs can be effective, but their advocates rarely seem open to the argument that the way they’re implemented matters.
They’re scum. No idea why such an article was ranked here.
mustache_kimono · 8h ago
This tariff discussion is insipid. The question is not whether there are some historic antecedents for tariffs. Of course there may be, like there are historical antecedents for slavery, but the question is what is the current econometric justification.
Some claims are just out and out misleading, like:
> One of the provisions agreed to by the U.S. in the early GATT negotiations following World War II was differential tariffs: the U.S. lowered its tariffs more than its trading partners did. Again, the purpose of this was to speed the economic rebuilding of allies and former enemies who had suffered devastation during the war.
Perhaps that was a purpose of those tariffs, but this ignores the more general purpose of US policy which was, at the time, to reduce trade barriers, by more closely integrating all these economies (see European Coal and Steel Community), and creating a customs union (see the Paris and Rome Treaties), all in service of preventing another world war.
> The U.S., for instance, has a 2.5 percent tariff on cars imported from Germany, while Germany has a ten percent tariff on American cars.
Hard to believe, in the age of Trump, but tariff rates are generally negotiated for provisions, as part of a broader trade agreement. TTIP, a new EU-US agreement, was dropped by the US without a deal in 2016. Guess why.
> As a result, while the logos of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Volkswagen are seen all over American roads, those of Ford and General Motors are a rare sight in Germany.
MB and BMW have a long history making cars, longer in many cases than the American companies. That is -- this is a mature industry, and, in general, Ford and GM are not regarded as making cars of the same quality both in the US or in Germany. So -- the reason you don't see many Cadillacs in Germany is because MB and BMW and Porsche make a better alternative, and the consumers know it.
Japan for instance has a 0% tariff rate on US cars and the Japanese still don't buy them.
ninalanyon · 4h ago
> Ford and General Motors are a rare sight in Germany.
It's not even true that Ford is a rare sight. Ford outsells Toyota in Germany, employs 28 000 people in Germany, and has been incorporated there since 1925.
US Fords are of course a rare sight but that has nothing to do with tariffs, it is simply that most buyers don't want them.
orwin · 4h ago
I disagree for Ford. Fords are well regarded in the EU, probably the US brand who sold the most car. But they do mostly small, efficient cars here, not the monsters they sell in the US.
resters · 7h ago
Tariffs and other ideas associated with economic nationalism place politics ahead of the economic freedom of citizens. They declare that economic activity is something that must be stewarded and managed by politicians, and that citizens are too foolish to be allowed to have economic freedom, and that all should sacrifice for the benefit of those chosen by political leaders to benefit from heavy economic restrictions.
For comparison, China applies the minimal amount of economic protectionism it deems necessary to achieve its industrial policy goals. The crucial fact about China's approach is that China's leaders do not make silly claims to sell the idea to a naive public, they cite specific, highly targeted industrial policy goals and interfere in the economy as little as possible. They acknowledge the sacrifice that tariffs require and assert that the industrial policy goals are worth it, they do not make false claims about who pays for tariffs.
On the contrary, protectionism in the US is a blunt and emotionally wielded instrument that is deployed haphazardly and then suddenly repealed, then deployed again amid rhetoric that the US is a victim and has been taken advantage of, and the emotionally reassuring and politically priceless falsehood that foreign companies pay the cost of tariffs.
The costs of recent tariff antics in the US is clear as the economy must now price in the risk of unpredictable and haphazard tariffs along with other systemic risks. Absent from the discussion of tariffs in the US is any coherent idea of industrial policy, any forward-looking or coherent perspective on what should be done to prepare for the future, etc.
US tariffs are a purely emotional ploy meant to build up nostalgia for bygone days of US heavy manufacturing. The "us against them" rhetoric and the victimhood rhetoric is just a bonus that (sadly) sells well politically in the US these days.
It is not only counter-productive and directly harmful to the US economy, it is also deeply embarrassing that the world has to witness the US self-immolating in this way, hitting our own knee-caps with a hammer, destroying wealth and trust that many people worked so hard to create.
Economists don't favor tariffs for one simple reason: Economics is a science and there is overwhelming evidence telling us what will happen. Better policy ideas exist such as targeted industrial policy (such as that done by China) but the US ignores them in favor of the most emotional and reactive posturing imaginable.
It should already be clear what happened. Trump made a lot of claims about "deal making" and tariffs. Many of the claims were contradictory from the beginning, meaning if one was true the other could not be true. Supporters are not bothered by that because the appeal is emotional rather than logical. Now we've seen many tariffs get deployed, we've seen markets tank, companies cancel orders, reverse course, hold back on investment decisions. Then we've seen the tariffs get walked back amid bluster and rhetoric. Some economic numbers improve in response to this but not all. It's like the last spasms of a dying creature -- is it an attack or a retreat? Neither or both?
All this stems from a deep misunderstanding of American power and American greatness. Misunderstandings like this are easy in a society so heavily influenced by just-so stories and propaganda, societies like ours in which the state religion, American Exceptionalism, is irresistable to so many.
ajross · 8h ago
This is a retcon attempt. While sure, tariffs are just a tax like any other and can be applied to lots of different policy aims, and don't have to be the end of the world...
None of these arguments were presented in a reasonable way, with numbers, ahead of a policy decision that made a considered attempt to find an optimal balance.
No, we elected an administration that had been shouting "Tariffs!" during the campaign, then enacted "Tariffs!" once in office, then engaged in a quite frankly pathetic flurry of increases/decreases/suspensions/delays to try to fix the critical problems being introduced by the "Tariffs!". Most of which have been to other nations' benefit, even.
It's a bit much to look back after three months of this madness and try to pretend how reasonable it was all along. We're still in the madness (Q2/Q3 numbers haven't landed yet to show actual effects, it's going to be a rocky year, folks).
matwood · 8h ago
The administration still routinely presents VAT as a tariff. To think there is any real policy thought behind the actions is akin to looking for meaning in the clouds.
trelane · 7h ago
To some extent, they seem interchangeable.
For instance, any time System76 is brought up for Europeans, VAT is immediately mentioned, along with why they don't have a European distribution center.
Why would opening a European distribution center be relevant if you have to pay the same VAT either way?
The VAT is akin to a sales tax. It's paid regardless of where the item is manufactured or distributed from (and mostly regardless of the item). The US typically applies between 5-10% sales tax on most items. I have no idea why someone from System76 would think it's relevant to have an EU distribution center, but it wouldn't change the VAT.
BTW, it's not just the EU that wants you to pay the sales tax when bringing items across the border, but the US also. It just so happens that it's rarely if ever enforced.
EDIT
I should add that the key difference of the VAT and tariff is that VAT is not made to advantage one product over another. It's simply a sales tax on nearly all products, just like the US sales taxes.
trelane · 7h ago
> have no idea why someone from System76 would think it's relevant to have an EU distribution center, but it wouldn't change the VAT.
It seems to be the customers asking for one, not System76. They were planning to open one, though.
> VAT is not made to advantage one product over another.
Like sales tax, there are different (and often zero) rates depending on product (same link as before)
tzs · 6h ago
>> VAT is not made to advantage one product over another.
> Like sales tax, there are different (and often zero) rates depending on product (same link as before)
But those different rates depend on the product category, not the product manufacturer or place of origin. The whole point of tariffs is to base rates on place of origin.
trelane · 6h ago
> But those different rates depend on the product category, not the product manufacturer or place of origin.
No, they don't. You have at least two VAT rates, and my country has four:
- Staple food (rice, basically? Probably flour too) as well as healthcare: 0%.
Food and common, staple products (soap, condoms, probably other), some cultural products (books, theater tickets, probably other), electricity, water: reduced rate (5.5%)
'vacation' rate: camping bookings, alternative healthcare, zoo, movies, restaurants (10%).
Everything else is 20%, whatever the brand or the producer. I know because I actually checked my transaction tickets for a long time (and my first journey b was writing an OCR to automatically analyze those tickets to ask for VAT reimbursement)
tzs · 5h ago
No, they don't. As noted in the link you provided the VAT rate on an import sale is the same as the VAT rate for a non-import sale.
trelane · 4h ago
There is a whole table with different numbers that vary by EU country. Look for "List of (import) VAT rates in EU countries"
detaro · 3h ago
That's an overview of the VAT in different countries, nothing to do with origins.
trelane · 3h ago
Aaah. That makes sense. Thanks!
detaro · 6h ago
EU distribution center is a proxy for "seller handles VAT and it wont be my problem as a customer to deal with the border authorities or the shipping company that in turn is dealing with the border authorities". VAT and tariffs get paid either way, but as a consumer I very much like it if its your problem, not mine, and "we ship from an EU location" is a very obvious way of ensuring that.
trelane · 6h ago
Why does it matter if it's the same number as a line item on the invoice vs you pay it to UPS upon receipt? It's the same price.
detaro · 3h ago
> you pay it to UPS upon receipt?
So now I gotta be home 100% to receive the package, instead of it getting it dropped off at a neighbors if I happen to be out/at work/...? And I hope they picked a shipping company that takes card/allows online payments and not someone who expects me to pay in exact cash.
And that's the happy path where everything worked correctly, and not one where something in the paperwork is wrong or got messed up and now you get to try figure out what exact proof the shipping company wants to release your package/believe that they got the amount wrong/... Or it gets shipped in a way where it ends up stuck with actual customs and you get to deal with them. If a seller has their shit in order it's relatively unlikely to happen, but well, random small-ish companies not necessarily do, and if it goes wrong its really annoying.
+ of course if the seller has an actual legal presence here it makes it clear consumer rights as I expect them apply.
I'm not someone who absolutely won't order from abroad if I want something, but a local source or a known distributor just avoids a whole category of potential issues. And computers are the kind of high-value item where people really want to avoid them (and some of the simplifications aren't available, e.g. I think the most straight-forward pre-payment mechanism for sellers is restricted to low-value parcels).
trelane · 3h ago
Thanks. Fair points all around.
We do not have any of these considerations in the US, which is perhaps part of why so much stuff comes directly from abroad.
detaro · 3h ago
I'd guess for things like computers it actually did apply, because these are too expensive for the old de-minimus rules, but of course there's probably not that many small computer makers outside the US shipping there, and large ones either have their own infrastructure or have it figured out. And its certainly possible the overall bureaucracy was easier to deal with too (for all the common rules the EU has brought, fundamentally a lot of it is still per-country stuff and the needs of small sellers are often not really considered, and we also just have more rules in many sectors).
But $800 (I think that was the value?) de-minimus indeed makes a lot of cases easy.
ajross · 6h ago
Well, I mean, sorta? This is the point where, indeed, rational discussion can happen. In the real world, VATs and tariffs are both taxes collected at the point of trade. The distinction is just about what boundary constitutes a "trade" and what accounting is done to determine the "value" of the trade. But they're close cousins and do most of the same thing and can be used for most of the same policy purposes.
But again, that's not what's happening in US policymaking right now. They don't want tariffs, they want "Tarrifs!", and splitting hairs over the precise definition isn't going to change their mind.
nkozyra · 8h ago
"Clouds are simply a negotiating tactic"
smitty1e · 8h ago
> None of these arguments were presented in a reasonable way, with numbers, ahead of a policy decision that made a considered attempt to find an optimal balance.
TFA is the transcript of an historical overview lecture, not a formal economic thesis on the topic, much less, a journal article.
Your point, while valid, might be enhanced by some counter-linking.
ajross · 5h ago
With all respect: to pretend that a "historical overview lecture" delivered on 6 May 2025 by a well-known conservative business pundit[1], before the Heritage Foundation, on the subject of "Tariffs in American History" ...
... is somehow completely objective and obviously unrelated to the giant shitstorm of contemporary US tariff policy is just laughable, sorry.
We both know what this is.
[1] The presentation might have fooled you, but John Steel Gordon is absolutely not an "economist" or "historian" in any professional sense.
smitty1e · 4h ago
> We both know what this is.
It's an historical overview. Was there a substantive rebuttal on offer, or just what sounds like innuendo?
ajross · 3h ago
TIL "noting the author and forum of a lecture with clear political relevance" == "innuendo".
The point isn't that he's wrong (though multiple people here are indeed pointing out things that are). It's that (1) his not being wrong doesn't remotely justify current policy and (2) who he is and where he spoke was very clearly intended to justify current policy. I mean, duh, as it were.
I mean, please. Link me another dry historical lecture hosted by Heritage. I dare you. Everything they do is political.
smitty1e · 50m ago
I specifically quoted the component of your reply that seemed to qualify as innuendo...and you attempt to shift the focus...
watwut · 8h ago
> President Trump wants to level this playing field.
No. It is an attempt to sanewash conservatives, because that is the whole reason for being for this university.
The part about Germany and cars is also crap.
smitty1e · 6h ago
> The part about Germany and cars is also crap.
So, could you suggest a link to a solid refutation?
orwin · 3h ago
Anybody who understands what VAT is and how it works cannot take this part of the article seriously. I hate VAT, I think it should cease to exist (it is still marginally better than sale taxes) but I made the effort to actually try to understand how it works before writing bullshit about it on basically a blog post.
watwut · 3h ago
The article is lying. At this point, it is not reasonable to assume this is just not understanding things.
People who work in these institutions lie, they are paid for lying and they do it to project their ideological agenda.
smitty1e · 48m ago
> The article is lying.
A legless assertion. Could you be more specific with the objection, please?
watwut · 3h ago
> In addition, Germany’s value-added tax is remitted on exports but charged on imports.
VAT is paid regardless of who manufactured the car. It is something the final customer has to pay regardless of whether the product was made in EU or abroad. If you are buying BMW, you have to pay VAT. If you are buying Toyota, you have to pay VAT. If you are buying an American car, you have to pay exactly the same VAT. It is sales tax, basically, just managed differently to make tax fraud harder.
Also, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have great reputation and fit into European roads. Ford and General Motors do not have comparatively great reputation. Germans were buying Teslas tho, before those became associated with support to far right.
Article author is lying, plain and simple.
smitty1e · 47m ago
The article is a recounting of historical facts. Do you feel that relevant facts were omitted, and if so, what?
What does that part about VAT have to do with this? VAT is essentially a sales tax with a more involved collection process.
The big difference in collections is that VAT is collected at each step of the chain of manufacture and distribution but refunded if the next step is not to a consumer, whereas in sales tax it is only collected on the final sale to a consumer.
As for why VAT is remitted on exports, it is the same reason why if GM builds a Tahoe in their factory in Arlington, Texas and sells it to a dealer or consumer that is not in Texas they do not pay Texas sales tax. Sales tax and VAT are both destination based. Exports, whether from Texas or Germany, are not to the final consumer and so VAT and sales tax are not owed.
Saying that VAT has anything to do with why BMW is more common than GM in Germany makes as much sense as saying that sales tax is why GM is more common than BMW in Texas.
Another important difference has to do with the size of the VAT tax compared to single-stage taxes. For example, in the US if you taxed 19% on inputs every step of the way, no one would be able to afford the final sticker price. Instead, the US taxes a much smaller amount but does not refund this like the VAT system, and the end consumer tax is the same small percentage. VAT can be much higher because it avoids the cascading tax effect. In the end maybe 19% tax was collected on the manufacture and sale in both the US and Germany, and all you changed was one having a higher tax versus cost but the sticker price evened out in the end.
Because of this difference in the two tax systems, VAT can be, and is, much higher than US state/local tax. But then, this means that differences in tariffs creates a compounding effect. A German manufacturer can sell to a US end consumer on average about: 100% cost + 2.5% tariff + 102.5% * (8.5% consumption tax) = 111% after tax cost. On the other hand, if Ford builds in the US and sells to a German end consumer, then the calculation goes: 100% cost + 10% tariff +110% * (19% VAT) = 131% after tax cost. So while Germany's VAT is 10.5% higher than the average US sales tax, and equal to the VAT any German would pay in Germany, its actually almost double that amount when you take into account the compounding affect of Germany's higher tariffs.
In short, the differences in the two tax systems result in systemically higher tax rates for VAT. And this means that EU car manufacturers do see a trade advantage in terms of selling to EU end consumers compared to US manufacturers selling to EU end consumers (when compared to either selling in the US) since the final after-tax cost calculation is multiplicative.
I actually dislike all consumption taxes, but I find myself defending VAT way too much on this platform :/
> And this means that EU car manufacturers do see a trade advantage in terms of selling to EU...
What is never mentioned in these discussions is that high VAT means higher prices as a whole and that has a chilling effect on consumer spending. German (and all other EU) manufacturers have a disadvantage of a smaller home market. This is then compounded by having other taxes on gas (+VAT too of course), which is much more expensive than in the US. So it's simply less affordable to have a car in the EU. And as a result, a high VAT and other taxes are not a competitive advantage for any local industry. This is different to tariffs or direct support, which are an advantage.
Every flavour of economics enjoys some level of widespread support, there are still a bunch of people who profess a commitment to Marxism. Nobody listens to them (hurrah!) but they're still there. If we had Marxists in charge their articles would probably get a lot more traction though because people want to know what is going to happen next. Ditto things like the gold standard, fiat currency, ultra-low taxes, ultra-high taxes, globalism and economic independence strategies.
TLDR; there is probably a strong selection bias here.
The conclusion is: "We'll see".
One might argue that the sight in question tends toward the Trumpian side of things in general, I suppose.
I should have thought this site a little better than "guilt by association".
Tariffs can work, but only if they are targeted towards certain industries/sectors. They can't just be slapped across the board and be expected to work properly. Furthermore, they must be attached to certain KPIs such as exports (i.e., the ability to effectively compete on the international market). Joe Studwell's "How Asia Works" argues that Japan, Korea, and Taiwan all used tariffs and subsidies to promote their own "national champions". In turn, they forced those companies export their products rather than just sell domestically in order to compete. If they didn't meet those export targets, those companies were cut off from state support. Ha Joon Chang, a Korean developmental economist, likens this to raising a child: you spend their initial formative years supporting them until they are able to support themselves without your help.
Sadly there has been zero discussion of doing targeted industrial policy (like China's) in the US. The irony is that Trump's approach benefits China tremendously.
(Though I wonder how much they contribute? 30-40%? Or more? How does one find this out?)
Anyway, I am sure there are other factors like colonialism and what not. But even if you manage to rob someone else and then by the end of next week your money is gone in the various waterholes of your neighbourhood then you are right where you started ready to rob again until you can’t rob anymore. Are there other, from past, “robber” nations that squandered their loot in watering holes?
I wonder how “meteoric” the decline would be if those same academic institutes are undermined and are stifled, the ones that contributed to the rise.
PS. When I was applying to unis in mainland Europe (because US/UK was too costly) any place below at least a hundred year old was “too nuvo” for my academic taste ;-)
I don't really understand this comment. Are you saying that there are not many colleges or universities in the US founded in the twentieth century? That's not really true. I haven't done this exhaustively, but I took the lists of US colleges and universities for just three US states (CT, ME, MA) from wikipedia. 101 of the 167 listed were founded after 1900.
I don't know exactly how this would work out for all 50 states but I am sure that we'd find many more, likely a large majority, founded after 1900.
There are around 4,000 or so postsecondary degree-granting institutions in the US. I think what's going on here is that you never hear of the vast majority of them.
Or are you saying that you rarely find US academic institutions founded before the 1800s? In that case, well, yeah, the vast majority were not.
Hillsdale is a college founded expressly to be a conservative alternative to the Ivies/older liberal arts schools. And its graduates have been very influential in the recent American conservative movement.
This is not correct. Hillsdale was founded in 1844 at a time when the contemporary so-called "conservative" movement in the US didn't even exist.
Oops this is my mistake. I shouldn't have said founded when I didn't actually know. These days it is at the very least marketed as such. A conservative alternative to...
"An introduction to the vast diversity of life from prokaryotic forms to the eukaryotic vertebrate mammals. This course introduces the beginning biology student to all the major groups of organisms and to their fundamental taxonomic relationships."
"This vast diversity exists because that's the way God made them" is perfectly compatible with that description.
Also, from the description of an event held April 11, 2025:
"Are the special creation of Adam and Eve and the evolution of humans over millions of years compatible? 100 years after the Scopes Trial, the debate continues."
So "they actually teach a course on evolution" seems to fall well short of a full description of exactly what they teach there.
"Emphasizes the fundamental evolutionary concepts that provide explanations for the diversification of life on Earth. Specific topics include the evidence for evolution, adaptation by natural selection, speciation, systematics, molecular and genome evolution, and macroevolutionary patterns and processes."
“They would never teach about evolution at a Christian college”
“OK it says evolution but I bet they don’t mention it”
<- YOU ARE HERE
“OK, they talk about evolution but I bet in a dismissive manner”
Do you? I have obviously not taken the class. Have you? What exactly do they teach in it and how do you know?
With global trade falling apart, this respect for IP is in grave danger. Robust IP protections contributed significantly to America's wealth.
The short-sighted focus on tariffs and re-shoring manufacturing completely neglects the whole balance and will damage America's position long-term.
Quite the opposite, the US didn't enforce IP protections during the first few years of industrialization, exactly because they were stealing IP from England.
We’ve all heard of IP theft from China but if Meta doesn’t face domestic punishment for its wholesale theft I really see no legs left to stand on.
I hope not, at least not in it's present form. As far as copyright goes a return to the Statute of Anne or something similar would provide time for authors to profit from their labours while putting them in the public domain within a reasonable time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne
* https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/when-are-tariffs-good
It's just that generally speaking, most of why they're being implemented by the US now are not valid.
It’s an island right in the middle of the entrance to Charleston Harbor.
To put it kindly a lot them are chaos apologists.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Some claims are just out and out misleading, like:
> One of the provisions agreed to by the U.S. in the early GATT negotiations following World War II was differential tariffs: the U.S. lowered its tariffs more than its trading partners did. Again, the purpose of this was to speed the economic rebuilding of allies and former enemies who had suffered devastation during the war.
Perhaps that was a purpose of those tariffs, but this ignores the more general purpose of US policy which was, at the time, to reduce trade barriers, by more closely integrating all these economies (see European Coal and Steel Community), and creating a customs union (see the Paris and Rome Treaties), all in service of preventing another world war.
> The U.S., for instance, has a 2.5 percent tariff on cars imported from Germany, while Germany has a ten percent tariff on American cars.
Hard to believe, in the age of Trump, but tariff rates are generally negotiated for provisions, as part of a broader trade agreement. TTIP, a new EU-US agreement, was dropped by the US without a deal in 2016. Guess why.
> As a result, while the logos of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Volkswagen are seen all over American roads, those of Ford and General Motors are a rare sight in Germany.
MB and BMW have a long history making cars, longer in many cases than the American companies. That is -- this is a mature industry, and, in general, Ford and GM are not regarded as making cars of the same quality both in the US or in Germany. So -- the reason you don't see many Cadillacs in Germany is because MB and BMW and Porsche make a better alternative, and the consumers know it.
Japan for instance has a 0% tariff rate on US cars and the Japanese still don't buy them.
It's not even true that Ford is a rare sight. Ford outsells Toyota in Germany, employs 28 000 people in Germany, and has been incorporated there since 1925.
US Fords are of course a rare sight but that has nothing to do with tariffs, it is simply that most buyers don't want them.
For comparison, China applies the minimal amount of economic protectionism it deems necessary to achieve its industrial policy goals. The crucial fact about China's approach is that China's leaders do not make silly claims to sell the idea to a naive public, they cite specific, highly targeted industrial policy goals and interfere in the economy as little as possible. They acknowledge the sacrifice that tariffs require and assert that the industrial policy goals are worth it, they do not make false claims about who pays for tariffs.
On the contrary, protectionism in the US is a blunt and emotionally wielded instrument that is deployed haphazardly and then suddenly repealed, then deployed again amid rhetoric that the US is a victim and has been taken advantage of, and the emotionally reassuring and politically priceless falsehood that foreign companies pay the cost of tariffs.
The costs of recent tariff antics in the US is clear as the economy must now price in the risk of unpredictable and haphazard tariffs along with other systemic risks. Absent from the discussion of tariffs in the US is any coherent idea of industrial policy, any forward-looking or coherent perspective on what should be done to prepare for the future, etc.
US tariffs are a purely emotional ploy meant to build up nostalgia for bygone days of US heavy manufacturing. The "us against them" rhetoric and the victimhood rhetoric is just a bonus that (sadly) sells well politically in the US these days.
It is not only counter-productive and directly harmful to the US economy, it is also deeply embarrassing that the world has to witness the US self-immolating in this way, hitting our own knee-caps with a hammer, destroying wealth and trust that many people worked so hard to create.
Economists don't favor tariffs for one simple reason: Economics is a science and there is overwhelming evidence telling us what will happen. Better policy ideas exist such as targeted industrial policy (such as that done by China) but the US ignores them in favor of the most emotional and reactive posturing imaginable.
It should already be clear what happened. Trump made a lot of claims about "deal making" and tariffs. Many of the claims were contradictory from the beginning, meaning if one was true the other could not be true. Supporters are not bothered by that because the appeal is emotional rather than logical. Now we've seen many tariffs get deployed, we've seen markets tank, companies cancel orders, reverse course, hold back on investment decisions. Then we've seen the tariffs get walked back amid bluster and rhetoric. Some economic numbers improve in response to this but not all. It's like the last spasms of a dying creature -- is it an attack or a retreat? Neither or both?
All this stems from a deep misunderstanding of American power and American greatness. Misunderstandings like this are easy in a society so heavily influenced by just-so stories and propaganda, societies like ours in which the state religion, American Exceptionalism, is irresistable to so many.
None of these arguments were presented in a reasonable way, with numbers, ahead of a policy decision that made a considered attempt to find an optimal balance.
No, we elected an administration that had been shouting "Tariffs!" during the campaign, then enacted "Tariffs!" once in office, then engaged in a quite frankly pathetic flurry of increases/decreases/suspensions/delays to try to fix the critical problems being introduced by the "Tariffs!". Most of which have been to other nations' benefit, even.
It's a bit much to look back after three months of this madness and try to pretend how reasonable it was all along. We're still in the madness (Q2/Q3 numbers haven't landed yet to show actual effects, it's going to be a rocky year, folks).
For instance, any time System76 is brought up for Europeans, VAT is immediately mentioned, along with why they don't have a European distribution center.
Why would opening a European distribution center be relevant if you have to pay the same VAT either way?
A few examples:
https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2204089
https://www.reddit.com/r/System76/comments/1c9djrj/taxes_on_...
BTW, it's not just the EU that wants you to pay the sales tax when bringing items across the border, but the US also. It just so happens that it's rarely if ever enforced.
EDIT I should add that the key difference of the VAT and tariff is that VAT is not made to advantage one product over another. It's simply a sales tax on nearly all products, just like the US sales taxes.
It seems to be the customers asking for one, not System76. They were planning to open one, though.
> VAT is not made to advantage one product over another.
Like sales tax, there are different (and often zero) rates depending on product (same link as before)
> Like sales tax, there are different (and often zero) rates depending on product (same link as before)
But those different rates depend on the product category, not the product manufacturer or place of origin. The whole point of tariffs is to base rates on place of origin.
They do, though:
https://stripe.com/en-ch/resources/more/import-tax-germany
- Staple food (rice, basically? Probably flour too) as well as healthcare: 0%.
Food and common, staple products (soap, condoms, probably other), some cultural products (books, theater tickets, probably other), electricity, water: reduced rate (5.5%)
'vacation' rate: camping bookings, alternative healthcare, zoo, movies, restaurants (10%).
Everything else is 20%, whatever the brand or the producer. I know because I actually checked my transaction tickets for a long time (and my first journey b was writing an OCR to automatically analyze those tickets to ask for VAT reimbursement)
So now I gotta be home 100% to receive the package, instead of it getting it dropped off at a neighbors if I happen to be out/at work/...? And I hope they picked a shipping company that takes card/allows online payments and not someone who expects me to pay in exact cash.
And that's the happy path where everything worked correctly, and not one where something in the paperwork is wrong or got messed up and now you get to try figure out what exact proof the shipping company wants to release your package/believe that they got the amount wrong/... Or it gets shipped in a way where it ends up stuck with actual customs and you get to deal with them. If a seller has their shit in order it's relatively unlikely to happen, but well, random small-ish companies not necessarily do, and if it goes wrong its really annoying.
+ of course if the seller has an actual legal presence here it makes it clear consumer rights as I expect them apply.
I'm not someone who absolutely won't order from abroad if I want something, but a local source or a known distributor just avoids a whole category of potential issues. And computers are the kind of high-value item where people really want to avoid them (and some of the simplifications aren't available, e.g. I think the most straight-forward pre-payment mechanism for sellers is restricted to low-value parcels).
We do not have any of these considerations in the US, which is perhaps part of why so much stuff comes directly from abroad.
But $800 (I think that was the value?) de-minimus indeed makes a lot of cases easy.
But again, that's not what's happening in US policymaking right now. They don't want tariffs, they want "Tarrifs!", and splitting hairs over the precise definition isn't going to change their mind.
TFA is the transcript of an historical overview lecture, not a formal economic thesis on the topic, much less, a journal article.
Your point, while valid, might be enhanced by some counter-linking.
... is somehow completely objective and obviously unrelated to the giant shitstorm of contemporary US tariff policy is just laughable, sorry.
We both know what this is.
[1] The presentation might have fooled you, but John Steel Gordon is absolutely not an "economist" or "historian" in any professional sense.
It's an historical overview. Was there a substantive rebuttal on offer, or just what sounds like innuendo?
The point isn't that he's wrong (though multiple people here are indeed pointing out things that are). It's that (1) his not being wrong doesn't remotely justify current policy and (2) who he is and where he spoke was very clearly intended to justify current policy. I mean, duh, as it were.
I mean, please. Link me another dry historical lecture hosted by Heritage. I dare you. Everything they do is political.
No. It is an attempt to sanewash conservatives, because that is the whole reason for being for this university.
The part about Germany and cars is also crap.
So, could you suggest a link to a solid refutation?
People who work in these institutions lie, they are paid for lying and they do it to project their ideological agenda.
A legless assertion. Could you be more specific with the objection, please?
VAT is paid regardless of who manufactured the car. It is something the final customer has to pay regardless of whether the product was made in EU or abroad. If you are buying BMW, you have to pay VAT. If you are buying Toyota, you have to pay VAT. If you are buying an American car, you have to pay exactly the same VAT. It is sales tax, basically, just managed differently to make tax fraud harder.
Also, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have great reputation and fit into European roads. Ford and General Motors do not have comparatively great reputation. Germans were buying Teslas tho, before those became associated with support to far right.
Article author is lying, plain and simple.
Merely asserting "lying" is unhelpful.