I feel like people would have a different reaction to a man who tricked his way into a women-only social group.
Brian_K_White · 6d ago
I feel like in either case any opinion should have to depend on how the group explians the purpose of it's policy, and has to actually be merely a "social group" with no material consequences to membership.
People seem to have an opinion that reflects the nature of both points here.
unsupp0rted · 6d ago
Shouldn't there be material consequences? Whichever group is materially better (better at magic, better at drawing audiences to a venue, whatever the KPIs) should benefit materially, right?
And presumably that's a mixed group of men and women, because heterogenous groups wrt sex/gender are better.
Brian_K_White · 6d ago
I am saying that their "but if a man did it" argument has at least 2 large plot holes.
Some groups have some explicable defensible necessity for the discrimination. People would indeed have a different opinion about a man violating his way into a group for women recovering from being violated by men. This mgaician group can not, or at least has not, produce any such justification of fundamentally unavoidable necessity.
And the group has to actually be merely a social club as they said. They used those words as part of their argument, so you can't consider any groups with any kind of material consequences when comparing "but what if a man did it". If a man is a knitter and there was agroup that billed itself as the worlds best knitters, that is a material consequence. There is a badge that is recognized as indicating the best, and they meet the standard, yet they can not have that badge that tells clients that they meet the standard. This group does appear to have that quality at least somewhat, and so is not just a "social club".
And so the argument is just gratifying garbage.
unparagoned · 5d ago
There are various reasons that female only groups might need protection that don’t apply to males. So yes you might expect different views.
locopati · 6d ago
Yes. It's called a power imbalance. The two things are not equivalent for that reason.
username135 · 6d ago
Id go with double standard
locopati · 6d ago
Then you're not acknowledging that a group for men that has a specific kind of power within a certain sphere that has excluded women is very different than a group for women in that same sphere. There is no uniform rule that can be applied, which is where you're getting tripped up. Uniform rules often favors control by those who have power.
IAmBroom · 5d ago
I'd go with "you have never feared that you might be raped and killed while walking alone at night".
username135 · 4d ago
Thats an assumption i dont think i would ever make
schiffern · 6d ago
Justice is done.
You would think that magicians, of all people, would appreciate a well-executed and harmless deception. More proof that no matter who you are, nobody likes being the butt of the trick...
No comments yet
mellosouls · 6d ago
Its a shame it needed a female leader of the Magic Circle to make this happen. Neither the original story, the ridiculous, petulant response or long time to a resolution are a good look for the society.
l33tbro · 6d ago
Exactly. It should have been a man who decided, who would have surely banished this imposter on the grounds of sedition and harlotry.
unsupp0rted · 6d ago
Indeed. I wish the entirety of the Magic Circle were female from the start, to avoid discrimination of this sort.
Men should be moved to their own separate social and professional clubs, where they can't disenfranchise anybody.
mcphage · 6d ago
> Sophie Lloyd says she disguised herself as a man to fool examiners into letting her join the elite society in 1991, at a time female magicians were not allowed to be members.
> When the Circle announced it was permitting women to join later that year, Ms Lloyd revealed her deception, prompting the society to expel her at the very same meeting it admitted its first female magicians.
> But the Magic Circle did not take kindly to the news. The duo got a letter saying that Raymond had been expelled, and in October 1991, at the first meeting accepting women into the society, Ms Lloyd was kicked out.
Interesting—there was a fantasy novel with much the same premise that came out in early 1992—The Lark and the Wren. Just with bards, instead of magicians. I wonder if these real events were an inspiration?
IAmBroom · 5d ago
An amazing number of misogynist sealions have come out to bask in these comments.
Plus a few racists.
decremental · 6d ago
RIP that friend group. Once women get involved in a men's only space it destroys that dynamic forever. Nothing but trouble can come from this.
People seem to have an opinion that reflects the nature of both points here.
And presumably that's a mixed group of men and women, because heterogenous groups wrt sex/gender are better.
Some groups have some explicable defensible necessity for the discrimination. People would indeed have a different opinion about a man violating his way into a group for women recovering from being violated by men. This mgaician group can not, or at least has not, produce any such justification of fundamentally unavoidable necessity.
And the group has to actually be merely a social club as they said. They used those words as part of their argument, so you can't consider any groups with any kind of material consequences when comparing "but what if a man did it". If a man is a knitter and there was agroup that billed itself as the worlds best knitters, that is a material consequence. There is a badge that is recognized as indicating the best, and they meet the standard, yet they can not have that badge that tells clients that they meet the standard. This group does appear to have that quality at least somewhat, and so is not just a "social club".
And so the argument is just gratifying garbage.
You would think that magicians, of all people, would appreciate a well-executed and harmless deception. More proof that no matter who you are, nobody likes being the butt of the trick...
No comments yet
Men should be moved to their own separate social and professional clubs, where they can't disenfranchise anybody.
> When the Circle announced it was permitting women to join later that year, Ms Lloyd revealed her deception, prompting the society to expel her at the very same meeting it admitted its first female magicians.
> But the Magic Circle did not take kindly to the news. The duo got a letter saying that Raymond had been expelled, and in October 1991, at the first meeting accepting women into the society, Ms Lloyd was kicked out.
Interesting—there was a fantasy novel with much the same premise that came out in early 1992—The Lark and the Wren. Just with bards, instead of magicians. I wonder if these real events were an inspiration?
Plus a few racists.